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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.mythology,alt.pagan,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna
Subject: RRosen: Feminist Reworkings of Misogynistic Traditions (was Re: Crowley and Feminism)
Date: 21 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0700
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[from thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org: Renee Rosen ]

At 02:14 PM 7/3/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Its a good example - In Oxford there was for many years a feminist mag
called 
>lilith, although the editors had v little awareness of the origin. 

I assume you are referring to the Jewish feminist magazine Lilith? It's
still around--there's a link to their website on my Lilith Shrine.

There is an 
>interesting piece on babalon in the thelema zone 
>
>Went to a lecture the other night on Inanna, who is, so I understood, the 
>original of the Lilith, and is the great goddess of Sumerian culture, and
not 
>'evil' in any sense, although she is very sexual/scarlet.

Inanna is *not* the origin of Lilith. Her origins are in the Akkadian
demons (or class of demons) Lilu, Lilitu, and Ardat-Lili. Lilu was the male
demon and Lilitu was the female demon, whereas Ardat-Lili was a succubus
(her name means something like "Lil" maiden). "Lil" was most probably a
loan-word from the Sumerian which meant "haunting spirit" (there's another
meaning for "lil" in Sumerian--atmosphere). The most famous Sumerian
demoness with "lil" as part of her name was Ki-sikil-lil-la (sometimes
called Lilake), who appeared in one of the Sumerian versions of the Epic of
Gilgamesh. She's definitely *not* Inanna; in fact, she's an "enemy" of
Inanna--she had taken up residence in Inanna's Hullupu Tree and Gilgamesh
had to kick her out of it. Samuel Kramer chose to translate
"Ki-sikil-lil-la" as "Lilith," which has led many people to believe Lilith
was up in that tree, even though it was more like her great grandmother, so
to speak.

The word "Lilitu" was borrowed into Hebrew as Lilith, which can also mean a
class of demons, both male and female (the liliths, lilim or liliot),
similar to the "generic" Hebrew demon, the shedim. Lilith in her origins
was demonic and remained so until the present day. (The only "divine"
strain of Lilith's "ancestry" is the possible influence of Lamashtu on
Lilitu/Lilith--Lamashtu was an Akkadian demoness who killed infant children
and who may very well have been a goddess originally. I'm a bit suspicious
of an actual connection to Lilith, though.) Of course, the same could be
said of the Scarlet Woman and/or Babalon. *grin* It doesn't stop me from
being influenced or affected by Lilith--it just makes me a bit more
cautious, since I refuse to ignore her true history.

Renee
lilitu@cjnetworks.com
-----------------------

[and]

On  9 Jul 97 at 22:43, Stephen Cass wrote:

> 93. For Lilith as "phallic woman", see " Basics to Interpreting the
> Black Moon" by Lee A. Suyterman.
> 
Thanks for giving the source. I will admit that I haven't read much 
into the astrological Lilith (i.e., the non-existant "black moon"), 
so I'll have missed any references in that literature.

> There are some references to Lilith (& her consort, Lucifer) as
> hermaphroditic, but I wonder if this reference  is not a nod to Her
> independence?

Who's stating that Lucifer is her consort? The only links I've seen 
between Lilith and Lucifer have been *modern* links, not ancient 
ones. In fact, the article on Lilith in the Encyclopedia of Religions 
edited by Eliade specifically remarks that it's surprising that there 
hasn't been much connection between the two. (Personally I don't 
think it's surprising considering Lilith is Akkadian/Jewish in 
origin and Lucifer is Roman (or is it Greek?)/Christian in origin, so 
it wouldn't make much sense for Jews to refer to Lucifer.)

Lilith's consorts are traditionally Ashmodai (Asmodeus) and Samael,
the first the king of the demons and the second one of the fallen
angels. (Sometimes you see references to two Liliths, the Elder and
the Younger, with one being the consort to Ashmodai and the other
being the consort to Samael, though I forget which was which.) Any 
references to her being hermaphroditic most probably are from 
Kabbalistic traditions (after the "First Eve" story was borrowed into 
Kabbalistic lore)--Adam was supposedly hermaphroditic before the 
creation of Eve, so since Lilith predated Eve, she  must be 
hermaphroditic too. (At least that's my understanding of the 
hermaphroditic aspects of her legend--I'm not a Kabbalist, so I may 
have some details wrong.)

> And, yes, She may be considered "anti-fertility" on the Mundane
> Plane, but She has Children of Men in other places.  The old stories
> of "child murder" could possibly refer to the spilling of seed by
> masturbation/Night Dreams of Her male Devotees. (Leila=the Night).

She's clearly antifertility on any plane--according to Jewish 
tradition, she gives birth to thousands of demons daily but half of 
them daily are killed. As for the "child murder" aspect of Lilith, 
depsite later apologists trying to whitewash the issue, that has been 
a primary aspect of her from her Akkadian origins. For centuries, 
Jews have made amulets to protect their newborn children against her 
child-killing aspects, and some Orthodox Jews still do. There's even 
evidence that her Akkadian predecessors, the Lilu and Lilitu, 
required amulets to protect children against them.

There isn't much connection between her child-killing aspect and her 
succubus aspect, except for modern interpretations thereof. In fact, 
most legends of her or her children focus primarily on one aspect or 
the other; rarely do both occur in the same legend. Her succubus 
aspect was not her bestowing graces on her "devotees" (though it 
could be so in *modern* practice)--she had no devotees until this 
century. Her origins are demonic, not divine.

As for the Laylah ("night")/Lilith connection, that's one of popular 
etymology--the words sound very similar, so people assumed they were 
related, and she became associated more with the night because of 
that. Lilith comes from the Akkadian Lilu/Lilitu. The "lil" were a 
class of demons, with Lilu being the male and Lilitu being the 
female. This is the commonly accepted etymology now, though some 
older sources (and works based on those sources) may still refer to 
"laylah" being the root of Lilith.

> (Other  opinions are welcome, and I am still fairly NU to the
> Archetype. :-) 93.93/93.

Sorry if I come out bitchy in this post--devotees of Lilith are known 
for being stubborn and opionated;> Seriously, I've been researching 
her for over 2 years now, and I've seen this disinformation spread 
about her for a while now (and written similar replies over and over 
again). I think it's about time I get around to writing that Lilith 
FAQ I keep meaning to write, or actually start writing the book about 
her that I mean to write. Now to find the time.

At any rate, check out my Lilith Shrine 
 and be sure to check out the 
link to Alan Humm's page on there if you want further information on 
Lilith.

Renee
lilitu@cjnetworks.com
-- 
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