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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna
Subject: Gods: Kali, Satan (Was Re: Neo-Paganism and my Satanism)
Date: 12 Feb 1995 10:05:19 -0800
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Kali Yuga 49950212


acelt@netcom.com (Felis Uncia) writes:

|...Kali is (IMHO) far more complex than Satan seems to be, and would 
|seem have a greater number of facets to her <...[better] synonym for 
|character...> than he.

I think if you look at modern Satanism and the god(s) associated with
the central focus (namely Baphomet, Set and Satan), you'll find a deity
with every bit as much complexity as Kali, though missing the Jehovah-
like Father-stuff which Kali is on a Mother-scale.  My gut feeling is
that Kali and Jehovah (who for me includes all of the above 'male'
deities) are really made for one another.


|Okay, this is where we're supposed t' run screaming for the exits, isn't 
|it?    
|Tyagi *can* be good at that (noflame -- hi Tyagi!) .  

:>  You're sweet.  I just like to explore.   Hehehehe.  It ain't my fault
if my exploration sometimes walks me into horror-shows and perversions of
'the Truth'. ;>


|of some of the attempts I've seen lately of ex-Christians to Christianize 
|Neo-Paganism.  (Rules?!? what *rules*?!? since when do we have *rules*?!?)

Absolutely no rules!  That, to me, is one of the best aspects of the
conglomerates called 'Hinduism', 'Neopaganism' *and* 'Christianity'.  There
really isn't any hierarchical control to any of them, and people who are
unsatisfied with what is available often go off and establish their own
religious path.  Wonderful!  

I think this is really the difference between the religious system or 
complex and the religious sect.  So many people with limited experience
take the part for the whole and generalize thereafter in fallacious ways
(about Christianity in our culture, or about other cultures' religious
systems, looking outward).


|As to whether they're the _SAME_ entities, I'm not quite certain.  

How could you ever determine this?  I know I've asserted that for me
Kali and Satan are in essence one, but I'd like to know how anyone else
would ever come to such a conclusion.  What criteria would you use and
how would you go about such an assessment?  Diane?  You listening too?
Could you respond to this as well, please?


|While I'll agree that some modern Neo-Pagan interpretations of Kali 
|...don't even remotely match the (genuine? and if so, why?) Hindu 
|interpretations of her, 

a) You're looking at this as if there is an objective god about whom one
   may form interpretations (at least this is how it appears to me).  I'm
   sure that not all Indians, Neopagans and especially Satanists feel
   this way about the gods.

b) I'd like to know what Neopagan interpretations you feel are so far off.
   There are many different 'takes' on Kali within India, and we tend to
   idealize a minority and forget the rest in a desire to obtain a simple
   vision (or in reaction to simple-minded devotees).

c) Your query about 'genuine [interpretation]?  and if so, why?' is very 
   important to me.  As above with regard to the establishment of the unity
   or identity of gods, I don't know how we shall discover any absolute
   standards regarding which interpretations of Kali are 'genuine', unless
   we begin making artificial constraints of culture, geography and time
   in order to facilitate the decision.  I'd love to hear arguments which
   support any of these restrictions, and I wonder why, especially if the
   god isn't just some 'archetypal image formed within a particular cult
   and location at a particular time' why that god can't venture beyond
   those artificial boundaries into other cultures, through promulgation,
   psychic contact, and mystical revelation.


|it's also true that such interpretations differ from folk to folk (to say 
|nothing of from person to person), and change through time.  

Precisely.  I see no hard and fast rules here.  In fact, even Ramakrishna,
who is revered as a saint of India, experienced prophets and visions of
various religions of the world in ways which were much different than
would be encouraged and even accepted as 'legitimate' by the 'orthodox'.

As the globe becomes smaller and smaller, relatively speaking, to humans,
so will the various religious traditions spread and emerge into different
lights through translation of language, culture and individual experiences.
I'd compare this to regional expansion (i.e. the spread of the worship of
Kali or Jehovah within the countries of origin) and how this must have
occurred there: some people taking the time to encounter the culture from
whom this god ostensibly 'comes' fully, some encountering the god first
and then integrating their experience into their lives and encountering
the 'home tradition', forming a 'new branch'.  I think that the Indian
religious complex (I don't like 'Hinduism') is simply a malleable and
less rigid set of sects than are many other religious complexes, and I
take it as an *example* of how we can become as a peaceful globe.


|...Which is the 'genuine' interpretation or deity?  (Will the *real* 
|Kali please stand-up?  And what do we do it they *all* do?)

I love your humor!  Again, I think to some extent we do a disservice to
our world and to the gods when we try to establish some sort of standard
of 'genuineness' which shall be taken as 'correct'.  Kali expresses
Herself to many people in many ways.  It is one thing to remain undecided
regarding whether or not another individual worships the same god as me,
but to deny that she is doing so based upon my limited perceptions is
too presumptuous for me.  I prefer to accept that what she says is what
she thinks and experiences and see if Kali can teach me anything through
this interaction (I'm weird, though, in considering Kali to be *everything
which is not me*, and therefore immediately accepting claims about Her 
manifestations and Her relationship to the rest of the world to be true, 
given this premise).


An aside:

|...The idea being that neither extremes of denial nor excess are 
|the best ways to live one's life (denial leading to one that is 
|unnecessarily grim, and excess leading to one that is jaded, and enslaved 
|by addiction.), and that striking and keeping a balance within one's self 
|and with 'Nature' (i.e. one's environment) is the preferred method.

There is the addendum to this also regarding *equilibrium* within a dynamic
system, rather than balance, which implies a stasis which never may occur
within a moving, polar system of energy.

nagasiva, tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
___________________________

"I'm the mole from the ministry
 And you'll all bow down to me.
 I'm the mole in your potting shed.
 I'm the bad thoughts inside your head.
 And you won't catch me....
 And you should thank me."

			- The Dukes of Stratosphear