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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.lucky.w
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Re: Repercussions of Providing Spells (was Spell Kits)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 07:11:55 GMT

50010801 VI! om Hail Satan! Hail Yes!

The incredible Sulk  seems to be making claims 
 about what "karma" is from an "Eastern" perspective beyond the New Age:

> Karma is impersonal. 

I'm quite glad to hear this. that would mean it could be predicted.

> Its just the [eastern] way of saying 'cause and effect' thats all. 

I know this is false because of my familiarity with 'the East'
and its multifaceted usage of the term "karma", determined by
not only its age as a group of concepts but its social (and 
probably class) usage.

I also happen to know that the word literally means "action",
not necessarily with any association with "reaction" at all.

{I'll grab a quote from Eastern sources on the subjects
indicating *different* ideas than just "cause-and-effect"
to disprove the generalization.}

after detailing the various types of karmas (multiple), 
which include "knowledge-obscuring, perception (darsana)-l
obscuring, feeling-karma, deluding, age-determining,
body-making, family-determining, and obstructive", 
the respected academics Charles A. Moore and 
Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan wrote of heterodox Jainism that

	There is the maturing and fruition of *karmas*....
and then
	After fruition the *karmas* fall off.
	--------------------------------------------------
	"A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy", Moore and
	 Radhakrishnan editors, Princeton University
	 Press, 1967; p. 259, Ch. VIII.
	--------------------------------------------------

they are 'adhering matter', not 'cause-and-effect'.

ok, so there's a good variety as to what 'karma' means, when 
it comes to its overall definition as it is used by Eastern
religious and philosophical tradition. there is certainly more
than TiS would have us believe (possibly Hermetic training? ;>). 

all the same, I was curious where the 'cause-and-effect' meaning
for karma appears in the East, so I looked through my library 
on the subjects (Eastern thought generally) and found the usual
moral stuff, associated with 'fruits' of actions dropping upon those
who committed the bad deeds ("The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and
Zen" has 'deed' for the literal translation of the term, interesting) 
and contributing to the type of rebirth the individual is likely to 
obtain in the next life. 

Professor of Philosophy Ramakrishna Puligandla (at Univ. of Toledo, 
with multiple degrees in PHYSICS! from prominent universities, along 
with a Ph.D. in Philosophy from Rice, and assistant editor of 
*The Philosopher's Index*) says that in the philosophy of Nyaya, 
"the law of karma is the Unseen Power (*adrsta* bringing about the 
happiness or unhappiness of human beings according to their past 
actions. Now, according to Nyaya, the law of *karma* [cannot], by 
itself, be considered the sum total of the moral merit and demerit
of a man", and that "lacks any consciousness and hence cannot 
itself apportion joy or sorrow to man. It therefore requires for 
its operation the guidance of a supremely intelligent and moral 
being. Such a being is indeed God." ("Fundamentals of Indian 
Philosophy", Abingdon, 1975; p. 189).

Nyaya is classed on the same level as Buddhism within his text.
the professor knows what 'cause-and-effect' is. :> I think he'd
indicate a less noun-oriented description if he meant that (as
'cause-and-effect' is unlikely to 'fall off' of anything -- it
seems that here *a* karma is the 'effect' of what you're calling 
'cause-and-effect'. I'm aware also of Buddhists who identify the 
term 'karma' with the *cause* (action) in a cause-effect dyad.

so we can see that there is a WIDE range of meaning for the term and 
that there are traditions clearly tying in religious/mystical (and 
no doubt also magical) uses of it, especially as a moral, but also 
a metaphysical, thing.

> Cause and effect doesn't vanish because you move up a notch 
> or two on 'the planes'. 

your 'karma' sounds an awful lot like these fruits the Indians 
are talking about, rather than future-life determinants, or a Law, 
so I'll guess you've been more heavily influenced by Hindus and 
watch for similarities in your exposition of karma's nature. :>

>  It just works differently. What is represented in spuiritual 
> mumbo-jumbo as the personal intervention of a personal spirit, 
> becomes the natural effect odf yiur own psyche arranging itself 
> in ways that lead it into unexpected results because you didn't 
> have the whole picture. Innocence is not good enough. It has to 
> be correct at another level, and innocence is only part of the 
> bit you need.
>
> People let you off yoir transgressions if
>
> - you learn not to do it again
> and
> - you are innocent of malicious intent.

based on your example of a crapping dog incurring karma 
because of doing it indoors, why wouldn't this psychological 
and social karma tend to be revenge and constraint-oriented
(personal; i.e. what some have called 'The Law of Revenge' 
(social))?

> The universe *does* call you on bad things tyou do down the road - 
> or in the road. Thats why they are 'bad'. Crapping in th eroad 
> isn't bad because it is amoral or indecent. Its bad because it 
> attracts flies and you may put your foot in it.

pragmatism added to physics so as to define a sociological
standard of behaviour? kreeping far from the repercussions
of a spell if nobody ever knows you cast it but you.

> Eastern science says that karmna is akin to spiritiual physics.

smoke-blowing orientalist. which 'Eastern science'? it wouldn't
surprise me if you could find one, but I doubt you're that
familiar with the subject. should I try to find one for you
on the world-wide web?

> Maybe. Asl Joel. Hes the expert.

Joel maintains he has defeated me (what a maroon!). 
I doubt he'd have the nerve to respond to me and further 
embarass himself with his ignorant arrogance. ;>

> I can't tell you what karma *really is*. 

you've already claimed that it is a psychosocial mechanism
which is impersonal and 'just means cause and effect'. 
I'd say this was peculiar and I wonder where you got it.

the reason I ask is that in 1993 (a very good year for 
publications) Frater Nigris published "Liber Wicca", which
contained one of the *only* sources I know espousing a similar 
concept:

	http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/eldar/liberwicca.tn

in which Nigris said the following (perhaps you would agree 
strongly!) in describing 'The 3-Fold Law':

# Our actions affect us in the following 3-fold manner:
#
# a) Energy goes through us as we manifest it.  We suffer or 
#    benefit according to its nature.  If an energy is 
#    intended to harm another then it harms us as we manifest it.
#
# b) Our actions affect others directly, and to the extent that we are
#    one with all so do we suffer again if our intent was harm.
#
# c) Our deep mind compensates us for our harmfulness and our
#    beneficence. If we see that we harm, we punish ourselves; if we see
#    that we help or heal, then we reward ourselves (more carefully and
#    thoroughly than any jailer).
#
# This may tie in to psychological models about the 'superego' and its
# prohibitive function, arising from the programming of our parents and
# other influential authorities.  This a very deep self-judgement
# process, inspired in us by society, the compensation carried out via
# unconscious processes too complex to explore here.

going further to postulate that

# It ought be mentioned, however, that those who transcend or grow
# beyond compartmentalizing their actions are also beyond the
# compensation of this Law, especially with regard to the reactions of
# the deep mind or superego.  There is much speculation as to whether
# this growth actually occurs, however (see Hinduism's 'moksha',
# liberation or Buddhism's 'nirvana'/extinction for other explanations).

now Frater Nigris was empowered by a Buddhist Householder Lama and
studied extensively with Wiccans for years before writing this
essay and putting this idea out into the Wiccan community. I would
love to hear about other sources for it, especially if you agree 
that it is similar to your own. 



thanks, brought back memories of Bates' "The Way of Wyrd". :>

> THAT is karma. Unexpected reactions from the web, resulting from things
> you did. Magick, to me, is the exploration and the use of that web. 

> .... Maybe that's what it is. Maybe its the Bohmiam 'implicate 
> order'. Maybe it isn't. 

vaguely Star Wars' 'force'-like energy webwork. imaginative.

>I am not claiming this is true, I am giving you a picture of 'a possible
>way to look at it'. One that I have used, and still sometimes use to get
>a handle on issuse like this.

understood, thanks. but are you claiming NONE of what you wrote above
is true, or just not the latter way of looking at karma? your summary
seems to imply only the latter.

>"Karma is a way of talking about cause and effects within a globally and
>universally connected system, with more connectivity and interaction
>than ouyr common physical model of the world allows". 

>"Karma works mainly through organic life, in the sense that we can use
>ordinaery causality as in phsyics to talk abou the interaction of
>physical objecst. Karma is more commonly reserved to talk about the
>complex emotional and mental interactions of (higher?) life forms, and
>the cause and effect patterns found there"

>"Karma is the ripples on the web of Wyrd: Actions cause effects. What
>effects are caused depends on teh nature of teh action, and the nature
>of the web"

>"The web is a catch all term for complex interactions between organic
>life".

beautiful summaries, thanks.

Jules:
>> To hold a pen is to be at war.
>> --Voltaire

my favourite author of biting text, blessed beast!

nagasiva
-- 
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