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To: alt.religion.gnostic.orders
From: Kater Moggin 
Subject: Re: Gnostics
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 03:19:45 GMT

Penndragon :

> Did you realise that by definition (of the word itself), Christ is a
> demiurge? ;)  Demiurge comes from the Greek demios (for the people) + 
> urgus (worker).

     That's etymology -- not definition.  In ancient Greek, the 

public workers referred to by the term "demiurge" were 
artisans.  Plato's _Timaeus_ uses the word for the artisan-like
god who creates this world.  The gnostics -- who probably 
picked it up from Plato -- used it in the same way, but changed
its valuation.  Plato's demiurge is the best possible, and
makes the best possible world.  The gnostics describe the 
demiurge as evil, arrogant, ignorant, disgusting, etc. (details
vary from school to school, myth to myth), and take a 
similarly critical view of his Creation, viewing it as a prison 
or exile of the spirit.

-- Moggin

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To: alt.religion.gnostic.orders
From: Kater Moggin 
Subject: Re: Gnostics  (was: re Womack...)
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 03:13:51 GMT

Penndragon :

[re the demiurge]

> He's actually told he is blind for thinking he is the creator. 

     You're still confused.  The demiurge is called blind, frex
in _The Reality of the Rulers_, because he says that there
aren't any gods beside him -- one of the Creator's better-known
assertions in the Old Testament.

          Their chief is blind; because of his power and 
          his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with
          his power, "It is I who am God; there is none 
          apart from me." When he said this, he sinned 
          against the entirety. And this speech got up to 
          incorruptibility; then there was a voice that 
          came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You 
          are  mistaken, Samael" (that is, "blind god)."

               _The Reality of the Rulers_ 86:27-87:4

     Likewise _On the Origin of the World_, where Sophia labels
the demiurge "blind god" because he insists that he's the 
only god, once again connecting him with the Creator in the Old

          "He said, "It is I who am God, and there is no 
          other one that exists apart from me." And when
          he said this, he sinned against all the immortal 
          beings who give answer. And they laid it to his
          charge. Then when Pistis saw the impiety of the 
          chief ruler, she was filled with anger. She was 
          invisible. She said, "You are mistaken, Samael" 
          (that is, "blind god").

               _On the Origin of the World_ 103:10-19.
> He aint the creator perse. He proclaims he is the creator after
> seeing none but himself above the creation. Then he is told he is blind from
> above by one he could not see.

     Wrong again.  The demiurge is told he's blind when he says
he's the only god.  He obviously _is_ the Creator of this
world in gnostic mythology.  I'll give several examples.  Let's
start with Ptolemy's system (described by Irenaeus in Adv. 
Haer. I), where the demiurge is said to have "made the heavenly 
and earthly things."  AH 1.5.2, Dillon.  Layton has 
"...created things both heavenly and earthly."  He's also (this
is still in 1.5.2) said to be the "parent and god of things 
outside the fullness, being the maker of all things, both 
animate and material" -- exactly what you're ignorantly denying.

     Same in various other gnostic myths.  The demiurge is said
to have "fashioned all things" in the Apocryphon of John_ 
12:33 (or "put all things in order").  In _On the Origin of the_
World_ the demiurge is once again clearly and undeniably 
described as the Creator of this world -- i.e., the heavens and
the earth:

          ... the ruler separated the watery substance to 
          one region, and the dry substance he separated to
          another region. And from the (one) matter he 
          created a dwelling place for himself.  He called 
          it heaven.  And from the (other) matter the 
          ruler created a footstool.  He called it earth.

               _On the Origin of the World_ 101:3-9.

     Notice the allusions to the Creator in the OT:  separating 
the waters from the land, making heaven and earth, labeling 
the earth his footstool.  Gen. 1:6-10, Isaiah 66:1 respectively.

> How do people miss something so fundamental?

     I don't know how you missed something so fundamental.  You
must be very uninformed or very blind not to see that the 
demiurge makes this world in gnostic mythology.  Good thing I'm
here to fix your mistake.

-- Moggin

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