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To: alt.christnet.demonology,alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic
From: "Peter Sanderson" 
Subject: Re: When summoning/talking to a spirit
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 06:42:55 GMT

"Jake Kebobshaw"  wrote in message
news:38E8334B.E77C9B0B@hotmail.com...
> You are doing this because you have a dislike for the bible, christianity,
> and that mythology.

The only problem with Christianity in the context of a mythology is that
while basing/plagerizing their religion on the backs of another (judaism)
they got NONE of their info straight.

> Did you know that the old testament predicted that Jesus would appear?

Sorry...this is a popular misconception but you could clear it up for
yourself with a little knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures.   A cursory
knowledge of the Jewish scriptures shows that ONLY in what Christians refer
to as messianic scriptures do they deliberately mistranslate the Hebrew to
"paint Jesus into the scriptures" (like kangaroos in a Last Supper painting)
but in all other scriptural passages they show correct knowledge and word
usage for the Hebrew (thus deflating any attempt to say the Jews changed the
passages themself)  If you need examples of this I refer you to the fine
work of the JPS and organizaions like Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism
who at least get the facts about their own religion straight.

Which just goes to show, plagerize from someone elses mythology at your
peril if you can't get your "facts" straight.

> That prophecy was fulfilled, and Jesus existence was recorded by
> historians.

Name one contemporary historian that wrote about Jesus.  Sad to say there
are none.  Philo who lived in the Galilee in the 1st half of the first
century (a contemporary) was a thorough and effective historian for the day
but wrote not one word about Jesus.  The Talmud mentions a rabbi named
Yeshua who lived some 150 years before who was eventually stoned for
sorcery...that's as close as we have.  All other writings about Jesus come
from later historians, some, like Josephus, stating their obvious bias.

> I suggest that you have a closed mind, for mythologies that you don't
like.
>
> > > How might an spirit's free will, factor into whether the spirit
> > > has the power to fulfill what you wish?
> >
> > Christian mythology posits that virtually no entity but Man has free
will,

In fact Jewish mythology posits that ONLY man of all of God's creations have
free will.  This would include all of the angels and the "ha-satan" God's
contractor for the evil that He Himself creates (as written in Isaiah).

> > various medieval grimoires take it for granted that spirits can be
compelled
> > and that many of them are no more that automatons.

> The book of Revelation mentions that one third of the stars fell.
> I calculated that the spirits would number in the millions.
>
> The Testament of Solomon, dating from the first century AD,
> tells of how Solomon compelled demons to build the temple.

Keep in mind the date of this writing.  Mythologies change with time.  They
are rarely completely static.
Trinitarian doctrine in the Christian Church was only official after Nicea
and the prodding of a specific Roman Church father.


> It concludes with Solomon losing his wisdom, after having made
> a sacrifice to these old Gods, after they sexually tempted him.
>
> How could an automaton sexually tempt Solomon?

An automaton could certainly be programmable couldn't it?  Many contemporary
authors on evocation have noted a description of a spirit entity as being
very much like a smart bomb.
That is certainly one possibility

As for another,

Perhaps you are not familiar with metaphor, symbolism, allegory?
As one orthodox rabbi once said, anyone who takes the Bible literally in all
cases is a fool.

You could extend this easily to ANY work on magick.

PJS



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"Jake Kebobshaw"  wrote in message
news:38E8F787.7C1CFB76@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Peter Sanderson wrote:
>
> > "Jake Kebobshaw"  wrote in message
> > news:38E8334B.E77C9B0B@hotmail.com...
> > > You are doing this because you have a dislike for the bible,
christianity,
> > > and that mythology.
> >
> > The only problem with Christianity in the context of a mythology is that
> > while basing/plagerizing their religion on the backs of another
(judaism)
> > they got NONE of their info straight.
> >
>
> When you make blanket statements like this, saying that they got
> NONE of their info straight, it leads me to doubt what you are about
> to say.

Go ahead.  feel free to doubt me, I wouldn't have it any other way.  I
suggest that you read the Hebrew sources in a responsible translation.  The
reason I referred you to the Jewish sources is that they make detailed and
well supported arguments about this issue including the translation
manipulation by Christian translators.

> >
> > > Did you know that the old testament predicted that Jesus would appear?
> >
> > Sorry...this is a popular misconception but you could clear it up for
> > yourself with a little knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures.   A cursory
> > knowledge of the Jewish scriptures shows that ONLY in what Christians
refer
> > to as messianic scriptures do they deliberately mistranslate the Hebrew
to
> > "paint Jesus into the scriptures" (like kangaroos in a Last Supper
painting)
> > but in all other scriptural passages they show correct knowledge and
word
> > usage for the Hebrew (thus deflating any attempt to say the Jews changed
the
> > passages themself)  If you need examples of this I refer you to the fine
> > work of the JPS and organizaions like Jews for Judaism and Outreach
Judaism
> > who at least get the facts about their own religion straight.
> >
>
> Many Jews don't accept that a Messiah came to earth,
> so it is obvious to me why you would side with
> Jews for Judaism, and Outreach Judaism.

I am not a Jew.  I do not subscribe to their theology.  You are making an
ass out of U and umption.  Like Mr. Schuler I insist upon logical arguments
and clear viewing of the facts.  If the Christian religion makes claims that
their messiah is the expected messiah of the Jews then it has to produce
substantial evidence to that claim.  It most certainly does not.
See the sources I mentioned for why this is the case.  As well the three
primary qualifications of the Jewish messiah who would come at the end of
days to establish God's kingdom on the earth were definately NOT fulfilled
by Jesus.  That messiah would have a "long life", bring about "world peace"
and most importantly all men would be granted "transcendant" knowledge of
the existence and power of God.  Please note that the concept of a second
coming has no basis whatsoever in Jewish religion and is a concept appended
on by the Christian Church to make up for Christ's inability to fulfill any
of the Messianic requirements (never mind the many rules he broke which
invalidated him)

> Are you aware that there is a group called
> Jews for Jesus?

Are you aware that group is basically a front for evangelising Jews to
Christianity and receives a majority of its funding from Christian
evangelical groups?  Perhaps you are also not aware that any Jew with a good
Jewish education could not possibly be taken in by this splinter Christian
cult?

To see an excellent rebuttal of Jews for Jesus and its spurious claims,
clear. logical and based on a thorough knowledge of both Jewish and
Christian scriptures, I once again refer you to the work of Rabbi Singer at
Outreach Judaism.  The differences between the two are not a matter f simple
interpretation or difference of opinion - simply the lack of knowledge on
the part of Christians and JFJ cultists and obvious cooking of the books by
Christian translators who translate the Jewish Scriptures.

I challenge you to look at the direct sources before making any more
unfounded claims about the nature of Old Testament prophecies.

> >
> > Which just goes to show, plagerize from someone elses mythology at your
> > peril if you can't get your "facts" straight.
> >
> > > That prophecy was fulfilled, and Jesus existence was recorded by
> > > historians.
> >
> > Name one contemporary historian that wrote about Jesus.  Sad to say
there
> > are none.
>
> Josephus wrote about Jesus.

Josephus was NOT, repeat NOT a contemporary of Jesus.  I already explained
this to you.  He was not even born until some 40 years after Jesus supposed
life and death.

I gave you an example of a contemporary historian, Philo of Galilee, who
lived in the time and place that Jesus allegedly lived in and who made no
remark about Jesus in his otherwise thorough records.


> Another popular argument for some, is to say that
> the King James Bible is biased against the occult.
>
> I suspect that many books may be biased,
> because they are written by human hands,
> but that does not negate their accuracy.
>
> Would you say that grimoires are biased,
> because they invoke christian god names,
> when summoning the spirits?

Of course they are.  You must take these works in the same historical and
social context that you peruse religious works in.  The author of said
grimoire may have been a Christian.  If popular theories of magick hold true
there is absolutely nothing to stop you from adapting any ritual to your own
religion.  It is the form which may be accurate, not necessarily the
content.


> > Philo who lived in the Galilee in the 1st half of the first
> > century (a contemporary) was a thorough and effective historian for the
day
> > but wrote not one word about Jesus.  The Talmud mentions a rabbi named
> > Yeshua who lived some 150 years before who was eventually stoned for
> > sorcery...that's as close as we have.  All other writings about Jesus
come
> > from later historians, some, like Josephus, stating their obvious bias.
> >
>
> Why was Josephus biased?

He states clearly that he is a Christian believer, thus he has no need to
provide any real substantive evidence, he simply recounts stories he has
heard.  This is not by any means substantive evidence, especially not coming
from a contemporary.


> > > > Christian mythology posits that virtually no entity but Man has free
> > will,
> >
> > In fact Jewish mythology posits that ONLY man of all of God's creations
have
> > free will.  This would include all of the angels and the "ha-satan"
God's
> > contractor for the evil that He Himself creates (as written in Isaiah).
> >
>
> Please refer to my previous post, where I demonstrated how
> 33,000,000 angels may have fell. If they fell, they must have
> down something to merit being cast out, and this would
> indicate that they had freedom of choice.

You really demonstrated nothing of the kind.  You simply quoted a sausage
link of Christian mythology with no proof or justification.

This is dualistic theology that has been apendded on by a Christian
believer.  It has no correspondance to thoughts or ideas in the Jewish
Scripture.  Dualism of this nature shows influence from a vareity of
religions that would have influenced the early Christian mythology including
Mithraism, Zoroastrianism and any number of gnostic cults in Asia Minor at
the time.


> Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah, but that refers to a Babylonian King,
> that would lose his power, not Ha Satan.
>
> Lucifer is a Latin name, appearing in a Hebrew document.
> How did that happen? Maybe some Jewish scribes were showing
> their own personal bias.

Does Lucifer appear in the Hebrew document?  It is commonly accepted by all
but the most backward of Biblical scholars that the king being referred to
is Nebuchadnezzer.  This note by Rabbi Singer should put this spurious
notion to rest once and for all:

-Rabbi Singer on Satan:

One final point is in order here.  Christians often point to Isaiah 14:12 as
a biblical reference to support their teachings of the final and complete
downfall of Satan which brings to an end the long and otherwise successful
career of this fallen angel.  They argue that Isaiah's mention of the fallen
"morning star" refers to Satan's ultimate demise at the end of time when
Satan will finally be cast into a lake of fire as articulated in the
twentieth chapter of the Book of Revelation.

There are, however, two serious problems with this assertion.  First, if
Christians maintain that the "morning star" is a reference to Satan, how do
they explain Revelation 22:16 where Jesus is called the "morning star" as
well?  Secondly, a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah
reveals that the "morning star" spoken of in Isaiah 14:12 is referring to
Nebuchadnessar, the wicked King of Babylon, and not to Satan.  In 14:4 the
prophet explicitly names the king of Babylon as the subject of the prophecy.

That thou shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say,
How hath the oppressor ceased, the golden city ceased!

Throughout this chapter and the preceding chapter of Isaiah, the prophet
foretells the rise and fall of this arrogant king who would use his
unbridled power to plunder Jerusalem and destroy its Temple but, at the end,
would suffer a cataclysmic downfall.  In 14:12 Nebuchadnezzar is compared to
the planet Venus whose light is still visible in the morning yet vanishes
with the rise of the sun.  Like the light of Venus, Nebuchadnezzar's reign
shone brilliantly for a short time, yet, as the prophets foretold, was
eventually overshadowed by the nation of Israel whose light endured and
outlived this arrogant nation who tormented and exiled her.


Keep in mind the essence of your entire argument is only relevant because of
the Christian Church's attempt to graft a foreign belief system on to
something of their own making.  This is by no means new information.  The
only requirement when modifying or transplnting another faith on to your wn
is to get your facts straight about the pre-existing religion.  If they had
simply been any other Romanized mystery cult with no attatchment to Judaism
this would all be moot...unfortunately for them they tried it and didn't get
an iota of it right.

> I will be back, after I find a few biblical prophecies
> that have been fulfilled, for Tom...

Good luck...you'll need it.

> Regards,
>
> Jake Kebob



Slight regard and some scorn,

PJS