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To: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.christnet.demonology
From: nocTifer 
Subject: Re: [Christian] Demonology 101
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 01:43:46 GMT

50040310 vii om  

peace be with you, my kin!

the problem with expositions of "Demonology 101" such as
this one is that they don't present the complete context
or character of their analysis. for example, this one 
is blatantly Christian of a particular limited type, 
and therefore should really instead be called 

	Christian Demonology 101

believe it or not, there are other types of demonologies,
and the sooner that the religious understand this, the
more cohesive and coherent a conversation may be had on
the topic as a whole. my criticism below emphasizes 
this with some precision and irritation. thanks.

Noah's Dove :
# A quick look at the Bible and the world's cultures 

there are many Bibles. many world cultures differ.

# will reveal that the demons or devils are out there 

some cultures do not admit of them or consider them to
be worthy of appeasement or support rather than condem-
nation and reprisal, denouncement and banishing. the
contention that "demons are out there" is a particular
perspective which does not obtain in other cosmologies.

# and can invade and possess humans. 

apparently possession is an action ascribed also to gods,
or at least to beings which are worshipped, like lwa and
orishas. they are invited, some even invite what you are 
calling demons to possess them or commune (with apparently 
differing results than what you've professed).

# Jesus cast many such demons out of people ....

there is no evidence of such an activity beyond the
legendary representations in Christian scripture.
it is likely that dualism and demon-hatred peaked 
in that time-period and was influential upon Paul 
and others who founded the Christian religion.

# in order to restore them to their right mind.  

dissemination of fear surrounding demons is a conversion 
tactic which may work for the general fearful Herd, but
it doesn't usually go over very well with demonologists
who have any familiarity with world culture and who can 
see through your inaccuracies (to be kind, "lies" is
how I tend to regard such statements, especially where
they pretend to be authoritative drawing on nothing 
but your preferred scripture).

# Shamans know well that evil spirits can possess people 

some shamans do not presume "evil" exists. that dualism
is a part of *your* mindset, your worldview, and doesn't
easily translate beyond that.

# and make them sick, or die.  

interestingly, the last few decades have seen the
revision of RCatholic norms to include filtering
by psychiatric and pathological ailments first before 
treating seriously for possession. the book and film 
"The Exorcist" dealt with this strata (cf. Blatty, 
who included RCatholic docs as appendices).

# But demonic spirits are clever and they can 
# disguise themselves in order to deceive, destroy 
# or use people for their own evil purpose. Read a 
# good book on demonology 

I've read a few, not sure how good they were. Henry
Ansgar Kelly's book was worthwhile, particularly
as regards *Christian* demons. I've begun to class
the demons based on the religious perspective from
which they derive. some religions have biases against 
the spirits and gods of other cultures (as you do) 
and throw them into the "demon" group irrespective 
of the original character of the being in question
and their relation on the whole to human beings.
for example, the treatment of Baal and Astaroth 
in many popular grimoires like the Lemegeton.
 
# or the following Bible references 

Bible verses are good for Christian perspectives on
spirits which they oppose or consider antagonistic
to their religious edifice. they may not be quite
applicable to an overall, objective evaluation of
the character of demons outside that bias.

# and you will see this The use of unbiblical 
# mystical techniques 

the question of "biblicality" is a Christian one.
while it may not accord with what your god and his
spirit-hierarchy may desire, that doesn't mean his
assessment or the assessment of his emissaries 
of the spirits or gods of other religions and 
cultures is sustainable or clearly thought-out.

# associated with idolatry 

is idolatry the worship of gods with statues and
pictures? if so, then your statement about these
spirits only applies to CHRISTIANS and those who
worship gods without statues and pictures. the 
rest of us don't accept your scriptures as
authoritative and it is not an unbiased set of
documents, since it was intended to support the
conversion of Jews and others to your religion.

# are one of many ways for demons to influence the 
# unsuspecting. Not surprising through out cultures 
# of the world there is a belief in evil spirits, 

this is false. some cultures either don't accept
the concept of "evil" or don't believe that spirits
are capable of attaining to such a status. not only

this, but the reaction to antagonistic spirits is
different across the globe. some seek to appease or
assist the antagonistic spirits by feeding them,
for example.

# shapeshifting gods or entities. 

gods and spirits which can change form or shape,
thereby altering their appearance are quite common.
I'm not sure that it is universal, however.

# The great deception is that these demons (gods) 

take care with your assessments of other cultures'
gods as demons. it brands you as unreliable and a
zealot without authority promoting your false and
deceitful ideology to any who will listen.

let me give you an example.

	the Christian god is a chieftain warrior
	who will stop at nothing to obtain converts.	
	his followers lie, cheat, steal, and generally
	slander the religions of others in order to
	convince the impressionable of other traditions 
	of the "evil" character of their fathers, when
	in fact it is the Christian which is the most
	evil, and worthy of complete abandonment.

	the god itself masquerades as the Fashioner
	of the Universe, when in fact all attempts
	to confirm said god's existence have foundered.
	its alien status and willingness to accept the
	repercussions of plunder and warfare brand this
	god as a villain and calumnist without virtue.

now seen from this perspective, what you are proclaiming
merely means that the spirits or gods in question oppose
your worthless god and his converts as liars and worse.
you are herein *demonstrating* the veracity of that 
assessment, lying about the gods of others and calling
them "demons" merely because your god doesn't like them,
or those whom you let speak for your god engage slander.

your willingness to class the gods of other cultures as
"demons" allows all else to do likewise with your god,
based on their chosen authorities, and with similar
criteria, even based on your actual actions and those
ascribed to your demonic host (you are mistaken and do
not seek to coordinate your knowledge with the data of
the more reputable than you). 

you would fare better, especially amongst the intelligent 
and occultists, if you were to approach the topic with 
greater humility, respect, and some care for the passing 
on of truth. consider this carefully and the principles
by which your god is supposed to be associated. slander
and hubris do not become your religion or your deity.
  	
# can come to people in forms that appear ....

presumably "all-powerful" or "almighty" gods can do
the same, if they wanted to.

# ...In Muslim countries the evil spirits are called Jinn.

this is false. djinn are not as a whole considered evil.
they are of a class beyond humans or the angels of Allah,
but some of the djinn are called devout and respectable.

# In parts of Europe they are called fairies, elves, 
# goblins, etc.

this is also false. nature spirits are considered at worst
mischievous, and sometimes antagonistic to certain humans.
during the course of history some shamans, witches, and
others have specifically befriended and supported the
Faerie and have known them not to be demons at all despite
the reputation which Christians have sought to give them.

# In China  they can appear as dead ancestors, the goddess 
# of mercy, ghosts, etc.  In India they can appear as Hindu 
# gods like Kali that demand human sacrifice. To shamans 
# they can appear as spirits of the rain forest. To Tibetan 
# buddhist they can appear as Tibetan gods or demons. 

here you make your interests in conversion plain, and your
isolated fraudulence obvious for all to see. not only are
many of these beings considered quite benevolent to humans,
they are at worst antagonistic or resistant to Christian
conversion, thereby making your simplistic criteria plain
(i.e. they resist conversion attempts by us and are 
therefore "evil").

# In the lore of Scandinavia, Scotland, and Ireland, when
# God cast out the arrogant angels from heaven, they became 
# the evil spirits that plague mankind, tormenting us and 
# inflicting us with harm.

this is the usual Christian story deriving from Noah/Enoch
(i.e. not Biblical in a Christian sense, but apocryphal,
relating to quasi-scriptural material originated by Jews).

# The ones who fell into hell and into caves and abysses became devils
# and death-maidens. However, those who fell onto the earth became
# goblins, imps, dwarfs, thumblings, alps, noon-and-evening-ghosts, and
# will-o'-the-wisps. Those who fell into the forests became the
# wood-spirits who live there: the hey-men, the wild-men, the forest-men,
# the wild-women, and the forest-women. Finally, those who fell into the
# water became water spirits: water-men, mermaids, and merwomen. These
# angels were condemned to remain where they were, becoming the faeries
# of seas and rivers, the earth, and the air.

this is a creative retelling of the cosmology of other cultures,
but it ceases to have anything to do with demons per se *except*
as seen by a fundamentalist Christian. that is, it is unreliable.

# Nature spirits : in most pagan religions, supernatural forces are
# associated with animals, the five elements and the Goddess. Sometimes
# the fairies were called Goddesses themselves. In several folk ballads
# the Fairy Queen is adressed as 'Queen of Heaven.' Welsh fairies were
# known as 'the Mother's Blessing.' Breton peasants called the fairies
# Godmothers.
#
# Are fallen angels now appearing also as aliens, new age spirit guides,
# pagan gods, spirits of shamans, Marian apparations, etc? There is
# evidence they are.

your scare tactics aren't very persuasive. please point out the
evidence to which you refer, remembering that most of those who
aren't Christian don't accept your scripture as relevant or 
give a very different interpretation of its content. thanks.

# The Bible says...

mostly omitted. your Bible was written by men interested in getting
more converts by spinning the stories in biased directions. I've
made a few notes on these, having seen most, if not all of these
citations previously in examination of Christian demonology previous.

# "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like 
#  the most High." -Lucifer Isaiah 14:14 

a clear mistranslation. the "Lucifer" of Isaiah is the King of
Babylon, whose name was a nickname of Venus before he got it.
you should do more research on your own scripture before 
coming to tell demonologists what it means.



# Bible, King James Version 57 matches.

matches to "devil" apparently. what is called "The Old Testament"
originated as part of Jewish scripture.

# Lev.17
#    1. [7] And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils,
# after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever
# unto them throughout their generations.
#
# Deut.32
#    1. [17] They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they
# knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

no context dictating unto whom it is directed. let us for the moment
presume it is intended for Jews or worshippers of the Judeochristislamic
God. it therefore is an edict for said faithful and doesn't identity who 
should follow this or what qualifies as a devil. it (at least in the KJ)
goes as far as *identifying competitive gods as devils*, and therefore
cannot be but referred to as a regiopolitical diatribe attempting to
dupe the ignorant reader or already-converted. similar quotes omitted.
 


# Pss.106
#    1. [37] Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto
# devils,

rather than unto a god who *feigns* requiring it briefly as 
some kind of queer test of faith or joke (Abrahamic).

now onto Christian scripture (first the Synoptics) where it has some
bearing on the nature of "devils" or "demons" or "Satan":
# Matt.4
#    1. [24] And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought
# unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and
# torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which
# were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

devils/demons associated with physical ailments. many Christians 
are apparently abandoning this worldview, or at least inserting
the edifice of medical science between their own failed efforts
to cure (make of that what you will) and their exorcistic skill.
omitting similar passages.



# Matt.9
#    1. [34] But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the
# prince of the devils [Beelzebub, cf. Matt. 12].


this exhibits the Christian notion (as Weird, others) that the 
spirits adverse to Christianity form a hierarchy and/or martial
force to which they ascribe all manner of evils. that several
Christian religious factions *also* maintain such a hierarchy
and support warfare gives the religious reason to fight amongst
one another. it also tells us of the shiftable category of ethics
and character with which we're dealing when we get information
from these biased religious.



# Mark.9
#    1. [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting
# out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him,
# because he followeth not us [cf. also Luke.9:1, 2].

here is a clear testimony of the competitive character of the
Christian scripture. it is not enough merely to cast out devils,
so called, but one must do it from the authority of the Christian
god else it be problematic.



on to Paulian Letters:
# 1Cor.10
#    1. [20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
# they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye
# should have fellowship with devils.
#    2. [21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils:
# ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Paul also arrogates to himself the identification of the gods of
other lands as devils. as such, his expression is suspect and is

entirely unreliable to the objective demonologist who isn't one
of his converts. 



on to the Patmos Vision of John:
# Rev.9
#    1. [20] And the rest of the men which were not killed by these
# plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should
# not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and
# stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Patmos John also arrogates until himself the identification of gods
of other cultures as devils. therefore his religion passes outside
the rational bounds of assisting demonologists whose interests are
more than adherence to the dictates of the Christians and general
worshippers of their Jehovah god. part of the problem of this part
of the Christian (scripture) about which Christians themselves do
argue as to its authority, is its ambiguity and metaphorical
character, into which any number of interpretations, 
contemporaneous and modern, may be imagined.


# Bible, King James Version
# 57 matches.

to "Satan" apparently.

# 1Chr.21
#    1. [1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to
# number Israel.

this is a very interesting passage, and receives multiple
appearances within the scripture itself. study of it in some
greater detail encourages us to doubt this author of evil.

# Job.1



it is well-known that the Satan of Job is a functionary of the
Jehovah god's hierarchy, a malak or wandering angel who is 
appointed the task of District Attorney for the Almighty,
testing the supposedly faithful to determine the source and
character of their piety. scholars of your scripture indicate
with reliability that this is a parable or metaphor, and was
not intended by its author to be regarded as history.


returning to the Synoptics:
# Matt.4
#    1. [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is
# written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou
# serve.

as a call to Christians this is very valuable, but those who are
not a part of the Christian religion can only see this as a call
to conversion (notably at the extortion of Pascal's Wager).

# Matt.16
#    1. [23] But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me,
# Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things
# that be of God, but those that be of men.

here we have some support for the spirit/being 'Satan' being more
akin or attuned to humanity than to the god of Christians. that
is a poor qualifier for "evil" except for those abstemious and
extremist religious who seek to divest themselves of "The World,
the Flesh, and the Devil" in favour of the Christian god.

# Mark.1
#    1. [13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
# Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto
# him.

in Christian scripture Satan, like Buddha with Mara, and comparable
also to the Satan of Job, provides an ordeal (temptation). some
Satanist Christians indicate this is an Initiation of Earth, and
by it understand it to be a quaternal qualifier for the Christian
Magus to practice the magic made possible by the Christ formula). 



# Luke.10
#    1. [18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning 
# fall from heaven.

this also is an interesting and peculiar passage. it gives the
creative Christian fabulators material to patchwork some grand
cosmic Satan-scheme out of poor translations of Isaiah and else
in relation to the apocrypha and scare people into conversions.
the unreliability of the Synoptic Luke's dualism is well-known
to those who study these texts with any sense and rationality.

# Luke.22
#    1. [3] Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the
# number of the twelve.
#    2. [31] And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired
# to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

this of course sets the stage for the demonizaton of Judas, who
was apparently helping out the Jehovah god's long-term plan to
sacrifice a son for his pleasure, blaming the needfulness of
the act on the unrepentent human species or some fabulous,
shifting "original sin" which is sometimes identified as 
sex by Nature-hating, pleasure-hating Christians.


on to Paulian letters:
# 2Cor.11
#    1. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an
# angel of light.

this allows a good number of Christians, by questionable criteria,
to identify all manner of things *as* Satan or emissaries thereof,
when in fact there is no established criteria for discerning this,
as compared to some other, spirit. by this measure, Christians are
very poor demonologists and should be shunned as biased frauds
where they attempt to deceive in this way, tantamount to becoming
that which they in fact decry in service to the demon they serve.



# 2Thes.2
#    1. [20] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
# unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

here as elsewhere mentioned, the Satan (an office) is used by the
Christian god for its own purposes.

# Rev.2
#    1. [9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art
# rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are
# not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

"the synagogue of Satan" (compare "Witches' Sabbats") 

a sad testimony to the identification of Jews with Satanists. this
is mostly a result from the fact that Jews are close competitors
of Christians and therefore are some of the most heinously put down
(or put to death, following all manner of calumny). what is too
close within Christianity is often called "heresy" and destroyed
by the religious who so oppose it. other instances (shameful)
omitted for this critique.



# Rev.12
#    1. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
# the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
# into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

this passage is often used to turn the originally Canaanite Serpent
in the Genesis mythos into the Cosmic Adversary (though it is clear
based on reliable evidence that previously, in Canaanite and even 
in much Jewish history that being was *never* considered to be an
aspect or emissary of evil. this is revisionism of the worst kind,
and serves to undermine this book as scripture to some Christians.

# Rev.20
#    1. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is
# the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
#    2. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be
# loosed out of his prison,

this last bit has given Christians many faulty notions of temporal
orientation, expecting the "Satan is Loose in the World" results,
along with the apocalyptic warfare which serves in the minds of
some fundamentalists to justify their *own* warring advances (cf.
recent idiocies by the Americans in this regard, following the
conservative Christian ideologies of its latest (primarily
Republican) presidents).

as I began, my criticism of this demonology post is primarily 
that it derives from a perspective of religious bias and 
is prone, therefore, to be used as a bludgeon against competing 
religions and gods to which the faithful seek its use. not only
is this inexcusable and ignorant of Christian religious to 
attempt to generalize their religious biases in this manner,
but it gives us reason to apply the same KIND of criteria to
its proffered gods and spirits which it seeks to supplement
those it slanders and calumnies. 

this kind of deception is truly characteristic of the Agent 
of Evil they themselves decry, and the forthright and humble 
Christians who are party to such blatant sociopolitical
machinations should repent immediately and seek lessons 
in humility from their Christ saviour.

peace be with you,

y
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     nocTifer