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Aspects of Christianity

To: personal email
From: (NocTifer)
Subject: Aspects of Christianity (Excerpts)

Date: Kali Yuga 49941101
Quoting: |anonymous

'Realization' is not a mental thing.  If you realized it, that realization
would come about through repentance (i.e. a change in lifestyle).  

Feelings are never sinful.  Anybody who told you *any* feelings are sinful
is full of shit (pardon my french :>).

You will never be 'better' than who you are right now.  Forgiving yourself
and accepting yourself for your own preferences and indulgences is the best
you can do in my estimation.  If your religious community puts pressure on
you to conform to their moralistic dogma, then you're only perpetuating
your torture by trying to twist yourself in circles over their judgement.

Forgiveness is a letting-go of an event.  It isn't some sort of carte blanche.
When I forgive someone I release my attachment to an action they did to which
I had associated my own feelings of pain and remorse.  I always can't do this
consciously, though it helps when my mind is in cooperation with my heart.

No true Christian would ever consider another person evil.  Such a
judgement is only applicable for the Lord God and that in Heaven upon
the Day of Judgement.  Our role is love and compassion (or, if one
follows the Way of the Sword, anger and vigilance).

Guilt is not the wage of sin, pain is.

Trust in the Lord Our God and know that He is all-compassionate.  You
will know how to ask for forgiveness when you feel that you are worthy
of it.  Until then don't bother yourself.

|and I don't know how to repent.  

Now *here* is the real problem.  There are a few things to consider:

a) do you really *need* to repent?

 Apparently you have been told by someone that what you are doing is wrong
or at least you feel that what you are doing is wrong even while you feel
that you need to do it.  If it is the former, I recommend getting them
out of your life if possible.  If this is impossible, then I suggest that
God is trying to teach you how to make boundaries with people, asserting
your own heartsong in the world.  Only God judges, and then sparingly.
Be not quick to believe the pronouncements of jdugement levelled by your
fellow man.

If it is the latter, then I can only recommend indulging that which you
feel to be sinful to excess and then abstaining alternatively.  It has
worked for me quite well, especially when I intentionally undertook this
practice and attempted to watch carefully and become *fully conscious*
of the repercussions.

b) how can you tell in which direction *to* repent?

 When you know that it is time, you'll also know which way to go.  I'd
compare the process of repentance with moving my hand away from a hot 
stove.  We know it is time to move when our hand feels the pain.  We 
know instinctively which direction (away from the heat) by the pain 
accompanying it.

c) when is the best *time* to repent?

 When you've determined that it is necessary (for yourself and for your
soul, not for others) and are certain of your decision.  Until then all
action is fruitless struggle and, if considered decisive, self-deceptive.
We just keep going back and forth, thinking we're 'all better', then
rediscovering the part of us we're denying.  I say leave it open as to
what you need to do about the actions you're taking.  If you feel pain
about it, feel it deeply and try to understand what is going on.

Sounds as if you have accepted the linear version of the Heaven/Hell die-
and-find-out scenario.  That is not my bag.  I say that your Heaven and
Hell are here.  

Our culture is obsessed with control.  We want to control our children,
ourselves, Nature, everything. All because we can't feel comfortable
with these things.  Too much damn control in the world, I say.  Let
your hair down, lighten up on yourself and others, give Mama Nature a 

The 'straight and narrow' is what gets people guilt-ridden.  Abandon
it until you are sure you know what the 'crooked and wide' includes.

Here's the way I'm seeing it.  In terms of death-scenarios, everybody is
going to Heaven.  No exceptions.  What we do now we do for ourselves and
God will teach us what is right for us and what is not.  Humans, by and
large, mess this up in our heads and hearts, filling us full of fears
about what might be 'wrong' to do.  Most things are sacred in the sight
of God.  The real sins are obvious enough that when we see ourselves do
them we never do them again.

In other words, look *hard* at what you're considering sins.  If that
doesn't cause you to abandon them and repent your evil ways, then perhaps
your ideas about evil and sin are programs that keep you powerless and
guilt-ridden, away from God.

Kali Yuga 49941104

...God loves you more than you will ever know and understand.
God doesn't care what you do.  God's given you a heart which SHe knows will
show you how to live if you listen to it carefully.  SHe also knows that
you've been judged and knows that you are trying very hard to get to Hir.

God doesn't punish after the fact.  God sets up the world so that we'll
know when we've done stupid, sinful things.  We get pain back from it,
usually immediately.  The problem is that we *also* get pain from things
people do to us in their stupidity.  This is *different* than sin.  It
is disease and is not God's handiwork.  It is the work of the Adversary.

....It takes two people to make a relationship and I
don't think you only want to avoid 'hurting him'.  He's likely already
hurt (by his parents/church/school) and will take it out on you for re-
stimulating him.  The world is like that.  There's a web of very hurt
people out there asking us to lie to them so we can help them to protect
their hurts.  It is reasonable for us to get sucked into that a few times.

However, eventually, if we want to grow, to walk the path of love, we have
to break out of that mold, I think.  We have to feel the suffering of lying
enough to want to tell the truth about how we REALLY feel, about who we
REALLY are, and ask that our friends and family shut the *fuck* up and
listen without denying it and without trying to change who and what we are!

Religions *suck*, because if they were really of God they'd accept
you for who you are, foibles, silliness, fears -- sin -- included.  That
religion which does more than suggest alternatives about the righteous
life (that which leads to bliss and love); that religion which rejects
its lost, its forlorn, its depressed, its lonely, its confused -- that
over which it has its *own* pain -- is not a religion of God as I know Hir.
No exceptions. 

|> judgement is only applicable for the Lord God and that in Heaven upon
|> the Day of Judgement.  Our role is love and compassion (or, if one
|> follows the Way of the Sword, anger and vigilance).
|Do anger and vigilance not entail judgment on your part?  

Absolutely not.  They come from deep within me regardless of my head-
doings.  I may know that we are all Children of God and yet also know
that my anger inspires me to oppose some action taken by my kin in
protection of the innocent.  Opposition is a very important thing.
Only through it are we able to curtail the insensitive disease which
masquerades as love in our culture.  This relates to what I mean by 
'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' (my monastic Rule).
They get to do what they need to.  I get to do what I need to.  Some-
times this means opposing one another.  As I do so I try to treat them
as my kin all the same, not judging them, not condemning them.  Loving
even my enemies, as it is said that Jesus taught.

|If you are angry and vigilant, isn't it *against* something that you 
|consider to be evil?  

You got it.  To me 'evil' => 'that which I cannot abide'.  It is not
some sort of moralistic evaluation of someone or something.  I never
know a person to be evil.  I've never felt that way, though I do
think I know how people can come to make that kind of judgement.  No,
more often I just know that some of their *actions* I must oppose, 
working against their activity.  This is popularly known as politics, 
and I am happy to engage it when it involves those issues and people 
whom I know and care about deeply (especially me!).

What happens 'after you die' is a big part of the Christian faith as
I understand it.  It isn't something I can really relate to, as I've
said.  All I can do is reflect my own feelings on the matter.  I feel
that the only time is now, forever.  The future is an illusion and
the past is a memory.  Only the present is important.  How are you
feeling?  What are you feeling?  Are you really with those whom you 
are sharing space?  Do you give what you can to those you love, first 
and foremost to YOURSELF?  There's a big area to work on, if not.  
Stuff about 'after we die' is rather pointless to me.

|I don't want to die with things unfinished.

Then get a very clear picture of what you want to finish before you die.
Then devote all your energies to working that out.  I doubt that any of
us will 'resolve all the loose ends' before we kick the bucket, but one
way to be sure there aren't any danglies is to put a shitload of energy
into resolving that stuff now, facing and working through the fear, and
just doing it.

Good example: honesty with friends and family might be the best development
for you in your life.  It would shake up your relationships, you'd have to
risk rejection, you'd have to be *true to yourself* (one of the central
principles I've learned in my repentance), and you'd begin to repulse and
draw certain types of energies/people your way.  Living your faith, walking
your talk, doing what you feel to be right (not necessarily what you've been
told) could do wonders to keep from 'dying with things unfinished'. 
What is more important, the fear and guilt of the present or your immortal 
soul?  (oooo, I'm clicking into that theological system now! :>)

Kali Yuga 49941113

Intellectual study does not necessarily factor into emotional healing.
You may know all sorts of things about politics and theology, but if you
have a self-esteem problem then it will fit into Christianity right-
nicely through the concepts of sin and repentance.  This is part of the
popularity of fundamentalism generally.  It is not intellectually-based.

There is a trap in Christianity.  Christianity is not itself destructive
to the individual.  GROUPS are destructive, especially when they begin to
apply the theology in their own perverse ways.  One of these ways is to
make that trap in Christianity available to the seeker.  That trap is the
'repenting power of sin'.  While this is a valuable mystical concept it
has been twisted into a guilt-inducing enslavement mechanism by various
groups of nominal Christians.  

The problem is that it hooks directly into parental control-programs that
we've developed from early ages, and if we haven't actually liberated
ourselves from our parents and that program, then it plays havoc with our
internals and manipulates us into supporting the social system.  I don't
know that many within the orgs truly understand this, but understanding it
is not important if you want to use it.  The trap is pointed out rather
directly in that the father in the family is often the disciplinarian and
it is to the Father that mainstream Christianity pays allegiance.  There
is a *reason* that the Romans (heavy on subservience and the domination 
of individual will) would find value in this Christianity stuff. ;>

What I'm saying is that what may be locking into your guilt-centers, as I 
see it, isn't Christianity per se but the TRAP of Christianity as promoted 
by popular versions of the tradition.  I think you've fallen into this trap
(likely, as I said, because of your relationship with your parents, not
that either was Christian), and are having trouble getting out of it.

....If you find a book valuable I say it is important to get the
exact text to discuss (and, in the case of _The Bible_, the preferred
translation).  I use the KJames version when someone asks me to consult
(which is perhaps why I find it irritating), but if I was to take the whole
God-Spoke-To-Us-Through-_The_Bible_ seriously I would go to the Greek and
Hebrew versions.

This looks like what you are talking about:

# 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without
# cause shall be in danger of judgement: and whosoever shall say to his
# brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall
# say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
# 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest
# that thy brother hath aught against thee;
# 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be
# reconciled with thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
# 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with
# him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the
# judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
# 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence,
# till thou has paid the uttermost farthing.

More too, but I'll comment on this before moving on to anything you quote.
My interpretation:

22 - Expressed anger felt in result of *another* source (i.e. relations with
 someone else) is sin.  It is missing the mark of reconciling with our
 kin elsewhere.  Transferring that anger, directing it to others who 
 are not involved in that issue, is the perpetuation of disease and

 Further, coming to know and judge our fellows is dangerous in that we
 shall judge ourselves as we judge others ("Judge not lest ye be judged.")

23/24 - The gift at the altar is ourselves before the majesty of God.  
 Before attempting to attain to the deepest consciousness ourselves it is 
 necessary to reconcile with our community and family.  Then we shall 
 give ourselves permission to bring that gift to the altar of the Cross 
 and offer ourselves up for the sins of the world.

25/26 - Finding no fault with one who opposes us, we need not judge 
 hir and therefore set ourselves up for judgement.  The adversary desires
 struggle.  When the lances are set, so our withdrawal will bring hir out.

 Opposing hir directly shall only bring the utmost of pain as we judge
 hir and thereafter judge ourselves, the mechanism of our judgement
 becoming the mechanism of our punishment and self-restraint.
Kali Yuga 49941205

For a Christian there is no better ally than God Almighty in the form of 
His Child, the Lord and Christed Savior.  Upon the Cross of Majesty He
protects us from all possible harm.  The Most High allows a type of
refuge that would be unthinkable to the lost or disoriented.

When I am lost or disoriented then I do not have/feel the presence of the
Most High, the Christed Savior.  At these times it is useful to have
tools or charms, spells or potions to prop up my failing will.  Over time
I have had many such tools, given them names, interacted with them as
friends and companions, and have come to associate each with a particular
type of support.

To: (FiatLVX XMagick Listserv)
From: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
Subject: Systems & Rewriting
Date: Kali Yuga 49941208

I have an aversion to calling upon Judeo-Christian entities or the tribal 
god of this ancient and honorable social tradition (YHWH, Jehovah).  I 
too have difficulty in translating to a more appropriate symbology (one 
which suits me).

As I see it, the social tradition of Christianity has
greatly influenced the Hermetic mages of of occult tradition and it is
very unfortunate that we get the public perception that the two currents are
in some measure opposed (they aren't from what I can tell, though the Gnostic
and Tantric elements sometimes squick the more conservative Christians),
which is more a function of intiation than absolute division, from what I
can see.

In fact, I think that this relationship with mythos and social religious
tradition is precisely the reason that there is such a great divide between
the staunchly Neopagan and the Hermetic mage or syncretistic Thelemite.  The
psychic and mythic elements of the two traditions are at variance, even
while the history and riteforms have quite a bit in common (not surprising
given that they are brothers and sisters).

...belief-structures and
their importance in determining not only one's Christianity but also the
contents of one's magical practices.  

I don't think that I'd be too far off in claiming that one of the more
important historical roots of modern magical traditions are the mystery
cults of the Greeks and Romans ('Hellenistic'?  I'm no historian), and
it seems rather obvious to me that mythos may be compared with a
computer program or a video cartridge, which may be plugged, through
language, into the various magical and mystical disciplines so as to
permeate and instruct our deep consciousness.

Of course this will not please the 'Judeo-Christian' who has associated
this label with the True Path and the mythology of _The Bible_ with
historical fact (I'm talking about the angels and the supernatural
elements of this tome, not those items which are evidently unquestioned
in their historical authenticity), yet very many others may at least see 
my point, especially when I go on to assert that what was done by Gardner 
and others within the Neopagan/Wiccan movement was to substitute a 
different mythos (agrarian, adverse to the popular establishment and 
therefore 'Satanic' in my way of thinking, and drawing upon the 
anthropological and mystical mythos alternative to their surrounding 
culture) for their formerly Hermetic and/or Judeo-Christian program.

That is, the TECHNOLOGY was relatively similar amongst magical traditions
of Hermetic and Neopagan style, yet the mythos installed through these
mystery traditions were intentionally different in key areas.  Other
changes amidst the Hermetic groups are evident within Christopher's post,
in that some favor more 'Egyptian' motifs in their program, where it
would appear that others (FLO) favor one more centered upon the Judeo-
Christian scriptures (likely _The Bible_, perhaps others).

Date: Kali Yuga 49941211

I still wonder what
happened to what I consider the true 'catholics' (universalists) who do
not merely wish to push their religion on everyone but wish to find the
common connection, to make your religion my religion, to truly live out
a universally religious life, as one might interpret Islam to be the
universal manifestation of the Way of God, regardless of form.
To: personal email
From: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
Subject: Re: A New Chapter
Date: Kali Yuga 49941214

|...I just can't keep up any amount or kind of discipline for any real
|length of time.  

Then perhaps you don't really want it.  I've always thought of discipline
as sin. ;>  Sometimes when we sin we are learning.  To restrict ourselves
is to place limitations upon the creation which God did not originally
inlay.  I think we are perfect the way we are, and when we're told enough
that we're not, we need to do things and restrict ourselves (binding) in
order to get that poison out of our system.  Once it's gone, then there
is no longer a need for 'discipline' against which we may rail.

Where jealousy comes up, I think upon the Torah and the admission on the
part of God that He is 'a jealous god'.  I see this as a wonderful state-
ment!  Look upon God and see the very jealousy which we feel in our lives!
What shall be our response to this?  I think the learned response of trying
to avoid that action which inspires the jealousy PREVENTS our growth.  If
God is jealous, then this means that He cares about us deeply and has some
maturing to do, just like we do.  How wonderful!  Let us sit with God and
listen to His fears, to His angers, to his sorrows.  Let us comfort God
and commune with this jealousy, know it and come to see as a natural human
experience, reflected through the divine.

Subject: Holy Spirit, HGA and LVX
Date: Kali Yuga 49941216

I associate the Holy Spirit directly with the Holy Guardian Angel of
Hermetic teaching.  This is typically connected with the Tree of Life at
Tiphareth, which is the Sphere of the Sun and of the Sacred Child.

On a related note:

I would still like to hear more about what the term/combination 'lvx'
symbolizes to people.  Here's what I've come up with so far:

lvx = Roman mixed number adding to 65, which is associated with Babalon
      in _The Book of the Law_

LVX = someone told me it stands for 'Light In Extension', though I don't
      know if this is true or not, since I don't know Latin and couldn't
      figure why 'X' related to 'extention' except by a play of English 

lvx = lux in that v and u are substitutable for some reason (likely the
      result of language-growth or some such rot); 'lux' means 'light' 
      in Latin, I'm told

LVX = There are 'LVX Signs' in Golden Dawn tradition, which are ritual
      associations and gestures (perhaps a posting of these would be
      of interest, given the phosphorientation of this elist. :>)

Subject: Re: Apostles Creed
Date: Kali Yuga 49941216

some of the things which I was fed in the name of 'being good for me' were
actually forms of enslavement or restrictions for which I was not ripe.  
I'm now very careful what I put into my body and mind.

For me belief is a tool I use to impact my deep mind in some way.
I don't just randomly install programs there which may futz up my Work.
Those items which come out of social tradition I find particularly suspect
and I tend to regard them with a great deal of scrutiny before I allow
myself to get anywhere near them.  This is perhaps one of the reasons that
I have avoided serious study of _The Bible_, though part of it is the
attitude of many nominal Christians who wished to cram it down my throat.

From: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
Subject: Christianity and Magick?
To: (FiatLVX XMagick Listserv)
Date: Kali Yuga 49941225  

Christianity is so complex (*excluding* 
weirdos like me) that it is difficult to make generalizations that will 
stick.  Take Baptists, for example.  My impression is that they do not favor 
an intermediary, and I'll bet (I don't know enough yet) that they aspire to 
a very important lifstyle which could be said to make their lives a ritual 
and to develop God in every relationship.

The priest could be described as one who feels sure of his placement within 
the Church, which is the perfect social attendant, everyone sharing the 
option of coordination of Service.  One of the benefits of such paths is 
they may become (like Witchcraft) a natural pattern of living, diffusing 
the dualism between 'spiritual' and 'mundane life'.

What would be the problem of 'bringing the Christ force into the sacred
space' (into the midst of the Church; 'where we are gathered in His Name')? 
Wouldn't this be a Mass?  How different would that be from a Roman Catholic
Service, except that we are all standing around the altar?

The Celtic cross looks like this:

                            +   oo   +
                        +       oo       +
                      +         oo         +
                     +          oo          +
                     +          oo          +
                      +         oo         +
                        +       oo       +
                            +   oo   +

I think that Christ in a Circle makes perfect sense, don't you?  

Here are some symbolic associations aligning with this formation:

The positive mathematical symbol (+) combined with the nul (o), creation out 
of nothing.  Straight and curved figures, feminine and masculine geometries 
(kteisic and phallic, ovum and spermatozoa), the Medicine Wheel.  The Paten and 
Chalice, the Hermetic Watchtowers, the Wiccan Quarters and the Tibetan Palace 
of Shambhala.  The Wheel and Axis, the Church (Bride/Lady) and Jesus Christ 
(Groom/Lord), the OX (Aleph/Fool), and the astrological symbol for 'Earth'.

Varies from wanting to be saved by Christ to manifestating the Christ Con-
sciosness, divining the Child of God directly.  Some emulate, some attempt
to duplicate a process (the Royal Way).  Some see Christ as their brother,
or lover, who plays and learns with them, and some revere Him as Lord and 
Master, everlasting peace.

Mediation can be understood to fluxuate between
possessory-/trancework (in which memory may or may not be occluded) and
a type of role-playing, in which one manifests certain states of being
that vary depending on role, mood or occasion.

...The Holy Spirit/Ghost is usually the most likely part of the
Trinity to be associated with the feminine.  Some equate the Holy Spirit with
Sophia of the Gnostics, for example.  Some go as far as seeing the Triple-
Goddess (the 'Three Marys', including Magdalene).  The root of 'Mary' relates 
to water ('Mar', the sea), suggesting perhaps a Lunar Goddess.  This would 
perhaps imply the Trinity Luna/Sol/Earth (Mary/God/Jesus and perhaps 

  Memories of a cycle past  
           Yuletide blessings 
            Cheer and silent reflection,

nagasiva (siva of the nagas), (Lucifer) (C) 1994
Subject: Religion, Christians
Date: Kali Yuga 49941228 
Like massive chains of steel and iron, pulling our minds into the dull 
dimwitted darkness of unreason and irrational faith, so the dogmas of the 
religions of man shackles and hinders the spiritual growth of the Hosts of 

Christians aren't cliquish, for we know what it means to be propelled to
the edges of groups.  Christians don't exclude evil, we embrace it for
what it is, demonstrating our true feelings in the presence of the
Adversary, whether that be anger, joy or sorrow.

...To speak one's heart is the true Christian
path, and this I am doing in abundance.  I meet with respect those who
will likewise share of their sincere path, whether that be Biblical,
Talmudic, Quranic, Legisian, Discordian or a weirdo tantric such as me. :>

Subject: Christianity and Definitions
Date: Kali Yuga 49950109
Christianity is many things to many people.  Talk to a student of religion.  
How can such a person decide who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'.  The only 
thing which she can do is say: 'this person apparently believes these things;
this person apparently believes these things; this person appears to vary
what she believes considerably; this person appears to refrain from belief
altogether'.  All within the same nominal tradition.  It is common within
the study of religion, even while the percentages of those mentioned above
are varied (the believers are many, though the content of believe varies
almost to the individual; variation of belief for one individual occurs
during every person's lifetime, though we might like to give the illusion
of certainty; those who choose what they wish to believe are few and far
between, the new elite who are no longer at the beck and call of the
establishment brainwashers; those refrain from belief at all are usually
the mystics and are exceedingly rare).  I think that this is as true for
the religion of Science as it is for the religion of Christianity or the
religion of Buddhism or the religion of Satanism).

> How can you call yourself a "Christian" when you have no definiton of it? 

'I' am an epiphenomenon.  I hold to no particular doctrine or conceptual
'truth'.  'I' can generate for you very many different possible understandings
of 'Christianity'.  I like most of them.  I try to imagine new ones all the

One calls oneself anything one likes.  If one truly feels that one qualifies
for the moniker, then this feeling may be associated with particular standards.
I have said numerous times in FiatLVX that while I do not hold that a specific
understanding is 'true' (given my bias against conceptuality as the revealer
of such truth) I consider myself Christian by several different standards of

I have given you at least three or four by which I thought I qualified.
Perhaps you did not see these?  Usually they involved metaphors, mythos,
and aligning myself with this cross-hair struggle-place I call the Cross
or Crossroads.  To me the Christ is a consciousness that incorporates all
manner of spirituality and not only the sectarian arrogance that is 
usually represented by organizations.


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Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races