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What Makes Valid Tantric Ideology ?

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Re: What Makes Valid Tantric Ideology (tm?)?
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:52:26 -0700

Dear Nagasiva,

    You ar right- on. I consider PadmaSambhava to be the founder of Tibetan
Buddhism and the ultimate authority at least for us Tibetan Buddhists. He
says "...Although the mind is, it has no existence..."  Here is a quote from
Padmasambhava about Mind in the Tibetan Book of the great Liberation
(Evans-Wentz) regarding the mind's existence:

The Nature Of Mind

That which is commonly called mind is of intuitive Wisdom. Although the mind

is, it has no existence.  Being the Source of all the bliss of Nirvana and
of all the sorrow of Sangsara, it is cherished like the Eleven Yanas.

Also since there has been such a fuss about all this lately, I have included
names he lists that have been given by various schools, just so that we all
know what we are talking about.

The Names Given To The Mind

The various names given it are innumerable.  Some call it 'The Mental Self'.
Certain heretics call it 'The Ego'.  By the Hinayanists it is called "The
Essentiality of Doctrines".  By the Yogachara it is called "Wisdom"  Some
call it "Buddha Essence"  Some call it "The Great Symbol"  Some call it "The
Sole Seed"  Some call it "The Potentiality of Truth"  Some Call it "The
All-Foundation".  Other names, in ordinary language, are also given to it.

Also, here is more about the existing through mutual dependency issue.  I
hope Tang reads this.

Mind Is Non-Created

    Mind in its true nature being non-created and self radiant, how can one,
without knowing the mind, assert that it is created?
    There being in this yoga nothing objective upon which to meditate, how
can one, without having ascertained the true nature of mind by meditation,
assert that mind is created?
    Mind in its true state being Reality, how can one , without having
discovered one's own mind, assert that mind is created?
    Mind in its true state being undoubtaedly ever existing, how can one,
without having seen the mind face to face, assert that mind is created?
    The thinking principle being the very essence of mind, how can one,
without having sought and found it, assert that mind is created?
    Mind being trancendent over creation, and thus partaking of the
Mind being in its primordial, unmodified naturalness non-created,as it
should be taken to be, and without form, how can one assert that it is
    In as much as mind can be taken to be devoid of qua;ity, how can one
venture to assert that it is created?
    The self-born, qualityless mind, being like the Three Voids
undifferentiated, unmodified, how can one assert that mind is created?
    Mind being without objectivity and causation, self -originated,
self -born, how can one, without having endeavoured to know mind, assert
that mind is created?
    Mind being, as it is, of this nature, and thus unknowable, how can one
assert that it is created?

nagasiva yronwode  wrote in message
> 50000508 IVom
> "Emir Halilovic" :
> >If Tzimon is not [sure that Gnome is wrong about metaphysics and
> >whether 'everything is illusory'], I am. Completely.
> sure, but you're basing your assessment on ignorance (see below).
> Gnome quoting a source I didn't see Emir quoting (lost otherwise):
> >"It is taught by the holy that whatever is established as existing
> >mutual dependency is not truly existent".....
> >Right, but what does it mean "truly existent"?
> lastingly so. this is a primary interest of Buddhist metaphysics.
> >...If true existence is only eternal, there is nothing but Brahman
> >in the world. Still no Maya here, I'm afraid.
> I don't think that brahman (different than Brahma, btw) is a common
> metaphysical assumption of Buddhists. in fact, there is a wide degree
> of divergence amongst Tantrics of traditional lineages such that the
> kind of assumptions you were making about terminology and metaphysics
> was overly simplistic. did you realize that one of the central
> principles separating Hindu Tantrics from Buddhist Tantrics is that
> of "anatman", which is typically contrasted with the 'atman' of
> Hindus? how this is or is not resolved is fascinating to the student
> of world Tantra.
> >"As for mind, no mind exists, but the nature of the mind is clear
> >light."....
> >This one I really don't understand. Maybe your friends should work on
> >translation just a bit harder....
> that is because you do not have familiarity with the Tibetan terms.
> the phrase 'clear light' is VERY commonly used in Tibetan Buddhist
> texts written in English. if you were more open-minded and tried to
> get to know what is called 'Tantra' in diverse cultures you would
> not be so quick to ask for 'better translations'.
> I don't claim to know much more about the extended Tibetan Buddhist
> terminology or lineages than you do, but at least I have taken it
> upon myself to acquire a few texts on the matter that may facilitate
> an understanding of the term in question, and I'll quote from them here.
> Lati Rinbochay ("Mind in Tibetan Buddhism", transl. Napper) says
> that the English "clear light" is taken from the Sanskrit "abhasvara"
> and the Tibetan "'od gsal". Daniel Cozort ("Highest Yoga Tantra")
> and Jeffrey Hopkins ("The Tantric Distinction") reference the Sanskrit
> "prabasvara" and Tibetan "'od gsal". Consort defines clear light as:
> the mind of great bliss that directly realizes emptiness....
> Minds of clear light are the fundamental consciousness
> of all beings, ranging from hell-beings to Buddhas. It
> is the type of mind into which all beings die and out
> of which all beings are born in the sense that it is
> always experienced at the moment of death and again
> at the moment of conception. For most beings, their
> mind of clear light is experienced only at times when
> they have no control over it and no cognizance of it --
> at death, when going to sleep, and so forth. Buddhas,
> on the other hand, operate only from within it, for
> Buddhas remain continuously in the mind of clear light,
> realizing emptiness totally non-dualistically while
> dualistically realizing all other phenomena with
> emanations filling the universe for the welfare of
> others.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> "Highest Tantra Yoga", Daniel Cozart, Snow Lion
> Publications, 1986; p. 106-7.
> _______________________________________________
> Cozart has a whole chapter on Clear Light which I will not
> attempt to review here (being fairly new to the idea myself).
> >"--So, one should think, 'For these reasons, since appearances which are
> >grasped to be objects are similar to the appearances in a dream, the
> >consciousness which grasps these appearances resembles the mind in the
> >of dreaming. Therefore in the Ultimate Truth, there is nothing whatsoever
> >that truly exists."
> >Except that Ultimate Truth.
> can it be said to exist? this is a very controversial issue, I think.
> going into it is the notion of what 'existence' includes, whether
> the Ultimate Truth may be said to partake of one side of a duality,
> whether existence and nonexistence are examples of such a duality, etc.
> >This is called neti-neti principle....
> Neti-Neti (Not-This, Not-That), as I understand it, probably poorly,
> is not so much a principle as a method of elucidation. it consists
> (please correct me where I err) of rebuking positive statements on
> the basis of their incompleteness and partial falsity. this style is
> also common amongst Madhyamika Buddhists, and was made particularly
> popular by Nagarjuna, who sought, through its usage, to demonstrate
> the futility of conceptual argumentation.
> >...try to understand what you're talking about....
> good advice!
> >Trying to change chakra system, BTW, is like trying to redefine human
> >anatomy. Whatever your standpoint is, kidneys will never swap place with
> >liver, and you'll never be able to eat with your asshole - dig it? As for
> >the one traditional chakra system (the one that emphasizes chakras along
> >sushumna) is a many times proven fact.
> that is another thread, perhaps, though it started this one. it is far
> from determined that any of these various models of bodily spiritual
> 'energy' is comparable to an anatomical descriptor. many who promote
> them will of course make this claim, but how to support such a
> contention is still at issue, let alone which of the numerous options
> available will qualify.
> >PS This is not an attempt of defending someone or something. It's only
> >you don't know what you're talking about, and I wouldn't like someone
> >here to buy your crap.
> if you were more adept in your *comparable* knowledge of the subject
> matter in question you sound be more convincing. as it is you are just
> sounding off.
> namaste,
> nagasiva
> --
> ;
> ;
> emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

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