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Is this a valid Tibetan Tantric Order?

To: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
From: (Harri Hannula)
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:21:00 GMT

Sönam Tsering writes:

>With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say:
>>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion"
>This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, especially
>the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. What has been taught since Nagarjuna
>(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika, which contradicts what you
>attribute to us. You should actually learn something about our system
>before you start pretending to represent it. I see that you
>fraudulently claim to have received instruction, but your mistake
>shows you have absolutely no understanding or knowledge of basic
>Tantric teaching, let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is all
>Madhyamika Prasangika.

I must agree with Sönam Tsering. 

The view that everything is an illusion is a wrong way to
understand Nagarjuna's madhyamika. The prasangika
madhyamika system arose especially to counter such an
"over negation". According to all prasangikas, everything
is LIKE an illusion (but not an illusion). If everything would
be (really) an illusion, there would be no actions and their
effects, and thereby most of Buddhadharma would be a

Buddhist Tantra is based on the prasangika view that
says that all is like an illusion, thus avoiding the extreme
of inherent existence of the things (dharmas) and the 
extreme of non-existence of the things (dharmas).
This is the main point of "middle way" or madhyamika.
Without understanding this view, liberation is impossible,
whether one practises Sutra or Tantra.

Harri Hannula

From: (Harri Hannula)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:51:10 GMT
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On Thu, 04 May 2000 00:05:44 GMT, wrote:

>The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message
>board is talking out of his/her ass. 

I haven't read the message itself, only the post here by Gnome D.
There wasn't anything wrong with Sonam Tsering's main point:

>>With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say:
>>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion"
>>This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, 
>>especially the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. 

If the "whereas they hold..." was written by Gnome D as a presentation
of Buddhist Vajrayana, then Gnome D made a mistake. Why? Because
samsara is LIKE an illusion, not AN illusion. So maybe you overlooked
that...    :)

>The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and
>only the Gelug Order.  

The nyingmapas who I have talked with, have all agreed with me and
Chandrakirti. They just express the view of emptiness differently, but
the intention remains the same.

>let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna
>(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika."

From historical point of view, Nagarjuna did not teach prasangika,
but from the prasangika practitioners point of view, he did (just like
Shakyamuni was teaching madhyamika, although it was "invented" 
by Nagarjuna.) So, from the prasangika's point, Chandrakirti merely
clarified Nagarjuna's intent, and he merely expressed the Buddha's
ultimate intention.... Retrospectively, Shakyamuni Buddha was 
a prasangika also (provided of course that you think that prasangika
system is the correct method to view emptiness.)

>The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is
>all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there
>are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very
>surprised to learn this!

HYT is based on the correct view of emptiness, which from the
prasangika's point of view IS the madhyamika prasangika view.

>And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana
>views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also. 

Not exactly.... Nirvana is LIKE an illusion, but not (real) illusion.

>True, non-dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the 
>illusory duality of Samsara/Nirvana.  No school of thought upholds 
>this view stronger than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter 
>of fact! :)


Harri Hannula

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