THE
ARCANE
ARCHIVE

a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


TOP | RELIGION | BUDDHISM | TIBETAN

Is this a valid Tibetan Tantric Order?

To: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
From: hhannula@pp.htv.fi (Harri Hannula)
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:21:00 GMT

Sönam Tsering writes:

>With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say:
>
>>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion"
>
>This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, especially
>the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. What has been taught since Nagarjuna
>(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika, which contradicts what you
>attribute to us. You should actually learn something about our system
>before you start pretending to represent it. I see that you
>fraudulently claim to have received instruction, but your mistake
>shows you have absolutely no understanding or knowledge of basic
>Tantric teaching, let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is all
>Madhyamika Prasangika.

I must agree with Sönam Tsering. 

The view that everything is an illusion is a wrong way to
understand Nagarjuna's madhyamika. The prasangika
madhyamika system arose especially to counter such an
"over negation". According to all prasangikas, everything
is LIKE an illusion (but not an illusion). If everything would
be (really) an illusion, there would be no actions and their
effects, and thereby most of Buddhadharma would be a
sham. 

Buddhist Tantra is based on the prasangika view that
says that all is like an illusion, thus avoiding the extreme
of inherent existence of the things (dharmas) and the 
extreme of non-existence of the things (dharmas).
This is the main point of "middle way" or madhyamika.
Without understanding this view, liberation is impossible,
whether one practises Sutra or Tantra.


Harri Hannula

Path: typhoon.sonic.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail
From: hhannula@pp.htv.fi (Harri Hannula)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:51:10 GMT
Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <39207810.34087629@uutiset.saunalahti.fi>
References: <390e4cab.26634835@news> <8eqesf$99q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs81222.pp.htv.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 957973860 4480 212.90.81.222 (10 May 2000 15:51:00 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2000 15:51:00 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452
Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tantra:15813

On Thu, 04 May 2000 00:05:44 GMT, xennu@my-deja.com wrote:

>The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message
>board is talking out of his/her ass. 

I haven't read the message itself, only the post here by Gnome D.
There wasn't anything wrong with Sonam Tsering's main point:

>>With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say:
>>
>>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion"
>>
>>This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, 
>>especially the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. 

If the "whereas they hold..." was written by Gnome D as a presentation
of Buddhist Vajrayana, then Gnome D made a mistake. Why? Because
samsara is LIKE an illusion, not AN illusion. So maybe you overlooked
that...    :)
________

>The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and
>only the Gelug Order.  

The nyingmapas who I have talked with, have all agreed with me and
Chandrakirti. They just express the view of emptiness differently, but
the intention remains the same.

>let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna
>(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika."

From historical point of view, Nagarjuna did not teach prasangika,
but from the prasangika practitioners point of view, he did (just like
Shakyamuni was teaching madhyamika, although it was "invented" 
by Nagarjuna.) So, from the prasangika's point, Chandrakirti merely
clarified Nagarjuna's intent, and he merely expressed the Buddha's
ultimate intention.... Retrospectively, Shakyamuni Buddha was 
a prasangika also (provided of course that you think that prasangika
system is the correct method to view emptiness.)

>The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is
>all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there
>are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very
>surprised to learn this!

HYT is based on the correct view of emptiness, which from the
prasangika's point of view IS the madhyamika prasangika view.
_________

>And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana
>views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also. 

Not exactly.... Nirvana is LIKE an illusion, but not (real) illusion.

>True, non-dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the 
>illusory duality of Samsara/Nirvana.  No school of thought upholds 
>this view stronger than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter 
>of fact! :)

Agreed.


Harri Hannula

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist: tyaginator@arcane-archive.org.

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.

SEARCH THE ARCANE ARCHIVE

There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase

OTHER ESOTERIC AND OCCULT SITES OF INTEREST

Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races