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Is this a valid Tibetan Tantric Order?

To: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
From: "ken morgan" 
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 01:13:52 +0100

I have been involved in Tibetan Vajrayana for many years in the Kagyu and
Nyingma schools.  I must point out that Madhyamika Prasangika is certainly
accepted by all schools of Tibetan Buddhism although the Gelugpa
interpretation is somewhat different than the other schools.  The Jonangpas
may have died out but the views of some Kagyus and Nyingmas is very similar.
The whole point of Madhyamika is that nothing can be defined as existing or
as non-existing - i.e the true nature of anything is indefinable, beyond
concepts. Everything is empty of any independant essence or self of any
Ken wrote in message <8eqesf$99q$>...
>While there has been a rather interesting digression in this thread, I
>thought I might take a stab at addressing the actual *original issue*
>at hand.
>The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message
>board is talking out of his/her ass.  The only Tibetan Buddhist
>Vajrayana group that might even come close (and yes- the discussion is
>really limited to the Tibetan/Mahayana view of the Vajrayana, as this
>was the arena wherein Poke was making his initial (correct)
>observation, and in which the "responder" places him/herself by the
>label "Madhyamika Prasangika") is the Jonangpa.  They don't exist
>anymore- they were slaughtered, and their monasteries and texts
>burned.  Why, and by whom?  Because they believed that certain things
>were *real*- and by the Madhyamika Prasangika's.
>The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and
>only the Gelug Order.  The Madhyamika Prasangika view is *adamantly*
>strict on its view of Sunyata- and no one that understood its view
>could ever make the claims that were given below by the "responder,"
>let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna
>(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika."
>Yes, the Gelug's rely heavily upon Nagarjuna- or rather Je TsongKhapa's
>interpretation of Nagarjuna- because the other schools *also* use
>Nagarjuna's Treatise on the Middle Path to support *their* views, which
>are not "Madhyamika Prasangika."
>The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is
>all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there
>are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very
>surprised to learn this!
>Anyway, like I said- the rest of this conversation is interesting, but
>not really very relevant to the actual question, which deals solely
>with the Vajrayana as taight within the Mahayana.
>And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana
>views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also.  True, non-
>dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the illusury duality
>of Samsara/Nirvana.  No school of thought upholds this view stronger
>than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter of fact! :)
>Sent via
>Before you buy.

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