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To: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick. From: xennu@my-deja.com Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"? Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 00:05:44 GMT While there has been a rather interesting digression in this thread, I thought I might take a stab at addressing the actual *original issue* at hand. The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message board is talking out of his/her ass. The only Tibetan Buddhist Vajrayana group that might even come close (and yes- the discussion is really limited to the Tibetan/Mahayana view of the Vajrayana, as this was the arena wherein Poke was making his initial (correct) observation, and in which the "responder" places him/herself by the label "Madhyamika Prasangika") is the Jonangpa. They don't exist anymore- they were slaughtered, and their monasteries and texts burned. Why, and by whom? Because they believed that certain things were *real*- and by the Madhyamika Prasangika's. The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and only the Gelug Order. The Madhyamika Prasangika view is *adamantly* strict on its view of Sunyata- and no one that understood its view could ever make the claims that were given below by the "responder," let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna (about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika." Yes, the Gelug's rely heavily upon Nagarjuna- or rather Je TsongKhapa's interpretation of Nagarjuna- because the other schools *also* use Nagarjuna's Treatise on the Middle Path to support *their* views, which are not "Madhyamika Prasangika." The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very surprised to learn this! Anyway, like I said- the rest of this conversation is interesting, but not really very relevant to the actual question, which deals solely with the Vajrayana as taight within the Mahayana. And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also. True, non- dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the illusury duality of Samsara/Nirvana. No school of thought upholds this view stronger than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter of fact! :) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
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