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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tantra From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Subject: Maya and Sunyata (was Is this a valid ...) Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:41:51 GMT 50000507 IVom quoting Bharati: ... for *Maya*, in spite of its metaphysical use, remains a mildly pejorative term. Its Vedic use was simply 'magic' -- Indra's *Maya* is often spoken of in the *Rgveda*. Samkaracarya derives it from the root *mi* -- for 'fade', 'dwindle'. Up to this day, it is *Maya* that has to be overcome, in popular religious parlance, it being a sort of Hindu analogue to temptation. Yet the analogy between the Hindu and Buddhist (Vajrayana) concept is less justified here than anywhere else. The Hindu conception of the dynamic (female) and the Buddhist one of the dynamic (male) do not coincide in their soteriological function; the Hindu stresses the distinction between *samsara* (the worldly existence) and *kaivalya* (emancipation), whereas Vajrayana Buddhism stresses the identity of *samsara* and *nirvana* systematically and rigorously. Somewhat facetiously, one might say that the Hindu *dynamis* (Shakti, *Maya*) tempts the adept away from emancipation, the Buddhist *dynamis* (*upaya*, *karuna*) tempts him towards emancipation -- there being not the slighest difference between *samsara* and *nirvana*, the question of tempting away from the supreme goal simply does not arise. ---------------------------------------------------- "The Tantric Tradition", Agehananda Bharati, Samuel Weiser Inc., 1975; pp. 225-6, note 15. ______________________________________________ Tzimon/"Visarga": >The point is that there is no illusion... reality is right >here and now, as it is in each and every Tantric tradition, >Hindu, Buddhist and Jain. my understanding is that this is an overstatement, mostly because the concept of "reality" is disputed. >This idea that the whole universe is a grand illusion, >rather than a reflection of divinity itself, is not a >Tantric idea. If the person who responded to you was, >indeed, someone who practiced any sort of Tantric system, >its obvious why they disagree with the notion of the >universe being illusory. again, I think this is an overstatement. rather than merely repeat myself, let me provide some citational evidence: During the two centuries from 100 B.C.[E.] to 100 [C.E.], there arose within Buddhism a movement that called itself the Mahayana, the "Great Vehicle or Course" (*yana*: a going, a course, a journey, a vehicle), in contrast to the Hinayana, the "Inferior Vehicle." The Great Course, said its adherents, was that of the bodhisattva, which leads to Buddhahood (supreme, perfect enlightenment), while the Inferior Course leads only to arhant-ship. It appears that the Mahayana arose within the Mahasanghika sects, which from the first had disparaged the arhant and had championed the doctrines later typical of the Great Course, such as that phenomena are *maya* (illusory) and *sunya* (empty), that the true Buddha is transmundane, and that the historical Buddha is a mere apparition of him. --------------------------------------------------- "The Buddhist Religion", Robinson and Johnson, Dickenson Publishing, 1977; p. 86. ________________________________________________ >I would tactfully, and based upon study and training, call >[the notion that everything is not illusory] a Tantric view. this much seems supportable by the evidence. for example, consider that the above source has the following Glossary entry: *Maya*. Illusion, trick, wile; a term favored by *Mahayana* writers to describe the apparent "reality" of *samsara*, which being only relatively real, or dependent on causes and conditions, is like an illusion (not nonexistent but deceptive), a magic show, a trick, a bubble, or a mirage, since it lacks any substantial independent reality, and soon disappears. -------------------------------------------------- Ibid., p. 216. _______________ >I would call the idea that maya=illusion, and that the universe is >illusory, a Vedic-influenced one, were it to come from someone >who was knowledgeable about one or both of these systems. as an absolute and categorical denial of existence, I would agree. and yet there are aspects of what Gnome has suggested which are reflected in some *Buddhist* schools without necessary referent to the Vedic. for example, for more on the Mahasanghikas: The schools of the Mahasanghikas are considered to have prepared the ground for the idealistic ontology and buddhology of the Mahayana. One already finds with them the theory that everything is only a projection of the mind, the absolute as well as the conditioned, nirvana as well as samsara, the mundane as well as the supramundane. According to this view, everything is only name and without real substance [compare the Siddhanta literature on appearances]. This idealistic view [cf. Pure Land Buddhism and its perception of Amida Buddha] opposes the realistic theories of the Sthaviras. ------------------------------------------------------ "The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen", edited by Fischer-Schreiber, Ehrhard, and Diener, translated by Kohn, Shambhala Publications, Inc., 1991; pp. 134-5. [my notes or paraphrase in [] square brackets -- n.] _________________________________________________________ namaste, nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick Subject: Reality in Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism (was Is this a valid ...) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 88 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8f3ghe$qt2@bolt.sonic.net> References: <390e4cab.26634835@news> <8ell3t$4uf$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <390e6062.31671615@news> <8elpk8$7p2$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <390e6f9d.35566358@news> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:28:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 957695328 208.201.224.36 (Sun, 07 May 2000 03:28:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 03:28:48 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22980 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:72337 alt.magick.tantra:15705 alt.magick:191496 50000507 IVom Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume): >...a fundamental understanding of the ultimate nature of Higher >Vehicle Buddhist Tantric philosophy. if you mean by this Mahayana Buddhism, I don't think it may be supported that all of Mahayana presumes the inherent illusoriness of phenomena. to Tzimon, quoting Bharati on *Maya*: >If one carefully examines what you have written above there >is nothing in it which contradicts my statement of the >ultimate illusionary nature of the physical and imagined >universe as revealed in the higher teachings of the >vajrayana traditions. while true, this is not representative of all Mahayana, or even all of Vajrayana, according to this source: ...from the viewpoint of the highest Buddhist philosophical system, Prasangika-Madhyamika, the views of the lower systems -- Svatantrika, Chittamatra, Sautrantika, and Vaibhashika -- also seem to contain inner contradictions. According to the Prasangika-Madhyamika system, the root of cyclic existence [samsara] is the conception of the inherent existence of phenomena and the consequent misconception of the inherent existence of the 'I', called the view of transitory collection as a real 'I'. The other Buddhist systems assert an inherent existence of phenomena whereas the Prasangikas assert that inherent existence is the referent object of a mistaken consciousness conceiving self. Thus, the lower schools' seeming inner contradiction which is resolved only through considering this teaching a non-final doctrine given to those who could not comprehend the highest view. ------------------------------------------------ "Tantra in Tibet: The Great Exposition of Secret Mantra -- Volume I", Tsong-ka-pa, Unwin Hyman, 1987; p. 34. __________________________________________ thus it seems that the "highest yoga tantra" (also known as annutarayogatantra) may be somewhat alone in its supposition about the extent of emptiness which underlies phenomenal "substance". >...what is the "Ultimate State" in Mahayana Buddhism? this appears to be much like the "ultimate substance" in Greek and later philosophy. it appears to include anything from Water to Energy and everything in between. in the case of an 'ultimate state', there are those who contend it is sunyata (emptiness of own being), others who call it Buddhata (buddha-nature), perhaps those who might contend it is tathata (suchness), and yet others who would maintain that such a question could not satisfactorily or concisely be answered due to the nature of language. if you are talking about the 'ultimate state to which one may be said to reach in Buddhist practice, then usually I have heard it described as parinirvana, total extinction (of tanha, not annihilation of self or ego). >We are all learning in this process -- I am learning the >differences between Indian Tantra, which I have only >studied in books, and Tibetan Tantra.... thank you for sharing. I am learning about the tantra of others from cultures everywhere else from books and the expressions of those who participate in those cultures. I am content with the tantra which I learn on my own in association with my goddess, yet find that study of historic reflection on these ideas is good groundwork for an understanding of what meditation reveals. namaste, nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.tantra Subject: Maya in Buddhism (was Is this a valid ....) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 45 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8f3i42$r54@bolt.sonic.net> References: <390e4cab.26634835@news> <8ell3t$4uf$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <390e6062.31671615@news> <8elpk8$7p2$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <390e6f9d.35566358@news> <8elt3m$a9u$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <8emldr$qrs$1@nnrp9.crl.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:55:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 957696945 208.201.224.36 (Sun, 07 May 2000 03:55:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 03:55:45 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22982 talk.religion.buddhism:122603 alt.magick.tantra:15707 50000508 IVom Tzimon/"Sumukha" : >...If you know of a Tantric tradition that does hold such a belief, >I would certainly like to follow up on whatever information you can >provide on this particular tradition. I am certainly still learning >new things, and have the benefit of oral tradition as well as >written. ...I have nothing to support the alternative view in >the case of maya and manifestation of the phenomenal world. does this do it for you? _Maya_ Skt., lit. "deception, illusion, appearance." The continually changing, impermanent phenomenal world of appearances and forms, of illusion or deception, which an unenlightened mind takes as the only reality. The concept of maya is used in opposition to that of the immutable, essential absolute, which is symbolized by the *dharmakaya* (*trikaya*). The recognition of all dharmas as maya is equivalent to the experience of "awakening" (enlightenment, *bodhi*) and the realization of nirvana. According to the highest teachings of Buddhism, as they are fomulated [sic], for example, in Zen, it is not actually an illusion or deception to regard the phenomenal world as real; the deception consists rather in taking the phenomenal world to be the immutable and only reality and thus to misplace the view of what is essential. Fundamentally, the relative and the absolute are one and identical, and maya (Jap., *mayoi*, delusion) are one. --------------------------------------------------------- "The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen", edited by Fischer-Schreiber, Ehrhard, and Diener, translated by Kohn, Shambhala Publications, Inc., 1991; pp. 142-3. _________________________________________________________ namaste, nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
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