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To: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.zen
From: "Ned Ludd" 
Subject: The 93 Hangups of Buddhism
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:22:12 -0500

The 93 Hangups of Buddhism:

 1. Prayer wheels
 2. Prayer flags
 3. Statues of the Buddha
 4. Karma
 5. Rebirth
 6. Suffering
 7. Belief in I / No-self
 8. Compassion
 9. Long-ass sutras
10. Vegetarianism
11. Meditation / Zazen
12. Emptiness
13. Impermanence
14. Detachment
15. Practice
16. Eightfold Path
17. Discarding dogma
18. Having no goal
19. Nirvana / Enlightenment
20. BEING
21. Without thought / Non-mentation
22. Deep contemplation
23. Defilement / Purity
24. True nature
25. One Vehicle superseding all vehicles
26. News groups
27. Non-duality (non-separation) / Indra's net
28. Guys who read more than they practice
29. Wisdom
30. Beginner's mind
31. Nihilism
32. Transmission / Lineage
33. Robes and bowls
34. Gender
35. Making lists
36. Replying
37. Trying to clear muddy water
38. Sects (and SEX)
39. Precepts / Vinaya
40. Non-violence
41. Saving all sentient beings
42. Not picking and choosing
43. The "Other Shore"
44. Leaving the raft behind
45. MU! / Koans
46. Sitting on the fence
47. Wanting to be all things to all people
48. Samsara / Delusion
49. Being a Buddhist
50. Buddha
51. Shaved heads
52. Analysing the means of doing away with analysis
53. Upaya (skillful means)
54. Identity of Nirvana and Samsara
55. Crazy Wisdom
56. The Tetralemma (neither this, nor not this, nor both, nor neither)
57. Guru worship
58. Mahayana vs. Theravada
59. Not being a branch of Hinduism
60. Going with the flow
61. Extinguishing the ego
62. Gods, Bodhisattvas, Patriarchs & Masters
63. Chanting
64. Bowing & prostrations
65. Dependent co-origination
66. Suchness
67. Birthlessness and deathlessness
68. The Three Jewels (Buddha/Dharma/Sangha)
69. The Middle Way
70. Desire
71. Blue Cliff Record
72. The Three Marks (anicca/dukkha/anatta - #13,6,7)
73. Over-trained mind
74. Foreign words
75. Canon
76. Excessive humility
77. Insisting on/Resisting the Americanization of Zen
78. Belief in beings/Belief in no beings
79. Samatha vs. Vipassana (calming vs. insight)
80. Mindstream
81. Religion (and Zen)
82. Freedom / Liberation
83. The Three Poisons (Desire/Ignorance/Anger)
84. The Three Freedoms (Emptiness/Signlessness/Wishlessness)
85. The Five Heaps (form, feeling, ideas, volition, consciousness)
86. Merit
87. Truth
88. Mindfulness / Paying attention
89. Bliss
90. The Two Truths (relative and absolute)
91. Objective Reality
92. Pleasure
93. Aging, sickness, and death


...So if you DROP all these attachments then you
reach the unreachable, Ned.
I will appreciate if you add above to the end.
Kindest Detachments,  - Bothi

-----
Ned:
> Hey, get with the program and answer the goddamed question, Bothi:
>
>           WHAT ARE THE HANGUPS OF BUDDHISM?

Dale:
> Ummm, prayer wheels?
> http://www.washington.edu/ark2/archtm/dw1144.html
> Prayer flags?
> http://neelix.ti1.tu-harburg.de/pics/nepal96/html/
bodnath-full-view-600.jpg.html
> Maybe a liiiittle bitty statue of the buddha, dangling from
> the rearview mirror?

William:
> , um, um, well, karma,, rebirth, suffering, belief in i,

Ned:
> All right, now we're cooking.  And what about COMPASSION??  How
> many seconds do you have to listen to a Buddhist before they start
> ranting about compassion?
> Is compassion a hangup of Buddhism?

Diane:
> Yes.
> Especially when compassion is interfering do-goodism.
> Other hang-ups are those long-ass sutras and vegetarianism.
> Diane (You gotta break some eggs.)

William:
> or get some on your face
> william (of course, becoming vegetarian avoids that problem
> altogether)

Brian:
> Unless you count cabbage eggs.
> - Brian
> (ewww....)

Diane:
> All I mean is: Its impossible to go through life without killing.
> Are the vegetables you eat grown by vegans who wear no shoes or
> clothes because even cloth shoes or clothes may be pieced together
> by a meat-eater?  It's that interconnectedness thing.  If you
> really don't want to eat meat, you have to kill the rest of us
> who do.  Hence, the hang-up.

Ned:
> EXCELLENT!  Now, can anybody say... ZAZEN!?!?

Sphere:
> I've been ignored!
>       EMPTINESS
> Never was too sure I knew how to pronounce Zazen.
> Sphere.
> No permanence.  No self.  No perfection.

Bernard:
> Hangup's come with attachment to dogmas. Only practice of the
> eightfold path is devoid of hangups. Discard dogma. Embrace
> practice.  Having said thus, the Buddhist should have no goal,
> especially not the goal of nirvana. Just practice the eightfold
> path and BE, without thought of any destination.

Caksi:
> Unless you do not comprehend the quoted parts correctly and
> through deep contemplation discerns the Illustrious Doctrine
> as stated above, you will be subject to mere confused deductions
> based on a defiled minds desire to speak before it recollects
> at least a glimpse of its true nature (which is the case with
> many so called zennists on this forum).
>...
> Perhaps I should add that a proper denomination of the Illustrious
> Doctrine is also known as "Tathagata Zen" or the way of the 'One
> Vehicle' superseding all vehicles in all ten directions (Thus no
> need of conceptualizations like buddhism, christianity, jainism,
> islam etc etc which are there to serve the ordinary towards the
> supreme all-encompassing vehicle)

David B:
> 11. News groups

Sphere:
> I'd also suggest anicca, anatta, dukha -- but I noticed some form
> of each.  I guess you could list them as a group as a separate
> hangup.  That reminds me:  non-duality (non-separation),
> Indra's net....

Pete:
> Hey, Ned! I know another hangup: Guys who read more than they practice.

AvS:
> Spoken just like an ignoramus beginner, Pete, whose great pride can't
> stand the thought of somebody wiser than himself.

Pete:
> Is that so? Is that so?
> Pete (beginner's mind at work...)

Captain Busternaut:
> Surprise.  Surprise and Alarm.  And an almost fa....
> ..er, I mean, Nihilism.

Daryl:
> Ho!  How'd this start without my authorization?  Guess I'd better
> add "transmission/lineage" and while I'm at it "robes and bowls".

Diane:
> Don't forget Gender....
> Remember, the 'enlightened teaching' that a woman must become a man
> before she can become enlightened....
> Diane (grind axe, carry water, chop wood, sweep dog-hair, clean
> litter boxes)

AvS:
> 27. Submitting lists with regard to hangups

Wally:
> 28. Replying to posts about lists with regards to hangups.

Sanscan:
> Trying to clear muddy water with a blender of posting

Ned:
> Thank you, Sanscan.  I would like to include that as the hangup of
> "Trying to clear muddy water".  Also, I'd like to offer as a hangup,
> "Sects".  (Not to be confused with "Sex" - although that is also a
> hangup - a BIG hangup - of Buddhism.)  The great Buddhist interpreter,
> Nichiren, in an attempt to simplify, unify and  popularize Buddhism
> in Japan in the 1200's, attacked all other prevailing Buddhist sects
> of the time, characterizing them as follows:
>    Jodu-shu - (Pure Land) Hell, and the enemy of all buddhas
>         Zen - The expression of diabolical powers (Zen Devils)
>     Shingon - National ruin for the state of Japan
>       Ritsu - High treason
>      Tendai - Loss of the true meaning of the Lotus Sutra.
> Thus, the relentless devolution of Buddhism into competing sects,
> each standing apart and promulgating its own doctrine to the
> exclusion of other Buddhist sects, is a hangup of Buddhism.

Pietzsche:
> how about *all* rules of the vinaya? wouldnt that add up to 500+?
> 200+ for men, 300+ for women, or something?
Ned:
> OK.  Precepts.  I'll add.
Pietzsche:
> but the #1 hangup in my book is: NO MUSIC ALLOWED
> so we are left with that weird guttural chanting
> sheesh
Ned:
> Triple toning??  Double and triple toning??  Come on, it's
> a patented Buddhist thing...  But is it a hangup?
Pietzsche:
> its enough to make one sneak into the corner gospel-music church
> on a sunday!  hard to blend in with a shaved head, though.
> people must think i had lice or something
Ned:
> If you did, would you kill them?
> (P.S. Non-violence - Is non-violence a hangup of Buddhism?)

Sphere:
> Heart Sutra...  Don't remember the list you've got....
> SAVING all sentient beings.  Nothing to save.

Ned:
> Uh-oh, one just hit me... Should maybe "Not picking and choosing"
> be on the list?  Nah, that's not a hangup.

AvS:
> An impromptu laundry list of items which some Buddhists hold sacred
> while others do not, hardly does anything to ferry us to the other
> shore.
Ned:
> The "other shore" is definitely a hangup of Buddhism.  But it is
> already on the list as "Nirvana/Enlightenment" (#19).
> Oh hell, I'll add it anyway.  Maybe it's different than Nirvana.
Daryl:
> Oh yes, it's different enough.  And related but MUCH bigger
> is the whole "leaving the raft behind" thing, IMO.

Virginia:
> You could add
> Mu.

Peter:
> a) Sitting on the fence.
> b) Wanting to be all things to all people.
> Since Nirvana/Enlightenment appears on the list I think we need
> to add c) Samsara/Delusion
> And looking at the list where everything appears that could be
> considered doctrine, belief, a tool or method, behaviour or action,
> only one more thing needs to be added
> d) being a Buddhist

Swift:
> It isn't just because I dislike the number 43, but i'd like to ask
> if Buddhist Ethics and Insurance also go on the list...?
Dar:
> no shit eh
> and Buddha too

Ned:
> ...So it has been a policy of Japan's Sotoshu for many years to
> require that the paperwork for the ordination of any new priest
> be accompanied by a snapshot, showing that he has truly shaved his
> head!  Am I correct in assuming this to be a 'hangup' of Buddhism?

Sanford:
> 51. Analysing the means of doing away with analysis.

Daryl:
> Ooh, do I hear "upaya"?
> At this rate we'll make 108 before Labour Day.

Richard K:
> Identity of Nirvana and Samsara.
> Crazy Wisdom.
> The Tetralemma (neither this, nor not this, nor both, nor neither)
> Guru worship.
> Mahayana vs. Theravada.
> Not being a branch of Hinduism.
> Going with the flow.
> Extinguishing the ego.

Diane:
> I don't think so. But God is a hang-up. Or should I make that
> gods?  Are we throwing everything into the stew? Like Mara or
> Tara or Maitreya (whatever) and all those Patriarchs and Dogen.
> What about Dogen? Or chanting?  Or dharma?  And bowing!  All
> that prostrating on a hard wooden floor!

Ned:
> ..."pratitya samutpada"... one of my especial dislikes and
> hangups of Buddhist doctrine.  When translated as "conditioned
> arising" it doesn't bother me very much, but in its more
> frequent translation as "interdependent arising" or "dependent
> co-origination" it really rankles me.

Diane:
> "Suchness" rankles me.  I've read quite a few descriptions
> of "Suchness" and it comes off gobbledy-guk....
> Birthlessness and deathlessness just makes my head spin.

Bothi:
> Sangha
Ned:
> Maybe.  I'm not sure it's a hangup.  The three jewels
> together might be a hangup.  I'll add "The Three Jewels".
Bothi:
> madyamika
Ned:
> Bingo! I'll add "Middle Way"

Bryant:
> How does "desire" sound in #69 spot in The Lils honor.
> Honor is a good one too?

Sphere:
> Hangup xx.  Blue Cliff Record.
> --
> Sphere.
> No permanence.  No self.  No perfection.
Ned:
> Hangup xxx.  The three marks (anicca, dukkha, anatta).

Diane:
> It's my own mind that messes me up.
> You've got Beginner's Mind on the list.  What do you have on
> the list that represents the schooled, learned, over-trained
> mind?  The mind that "knows it all"? The mind that knows so
> much, it can't tolerate other thinking.... or does that all
> fall under "attachment"?
Ned:
> OK, I'll add "Over-intellectualization" to the list, unless
> you'd prefer a more specific term, like "Over-trained".
> One hangup that I've seen in most of the Buddhism discussed
> anywhere (here or elsewhere), and in most of what I've read,
> is an over-fondness for foreign words.

Ardie:
> Cut to the chase, Neddy.  Brand the entire canon as a hang-up.
> Then ask youself, isn't the real Buddha an old bardic fart who
> thinks & acts like I do?

Brian:
> should excessive humility be on the list?

Minkfoot:
> Insisting on the Americanization of Zen.
> Being against the Americanization of Zen.

John K:
> The discussion brings to mind some other things that might be
> hangups, although I'm not sure how to describe them in all cases:
> beings, and the feeling that one must help them (maybe this is #20)
> "there are no beings", esp. as an excuse for not helping them
> attachment
> nonattachment (#14)
> dependent origination
> samatha vs. vipassana
> karuna vs. metta
> Do we plan to stop at 108?

Alleyne1:
> Any hangup with buddhism, check your mental processees.
> it is your own mindstream creating the hangup. Look at self.

Daryl:
> I coulda swore religion (or not) was already in there but
> I don't see it.  I humbly offer it as another hangup.
Dar:
> 81. Zen

Inge:
> Buddhism is all about getting liberated from hangups with liberating
> hangups, so there is nothing to get HUNG about. no hangups, no ism.

Ned:
> I'd like to suggest the following additions to the list:
> 1. The Three Poisons (Desire/Ignorance/Anger), one of which
> is already on the list (#70-Desire).
> 2. The Three Freedoms (Emptiness/Signlessness/Wishlessness),
> two of which are already on the list (#12-Emptiness, and
> #18-Having no goal).
> 3. The Five Heaps (form, feeling, ideas, volition, consciousness).

Christopher M:
> Merit
Ned:
> Thank you.  And I think I'll add 'Truth' too.  Purity isn't on it,
> but 'defilement' is, so I'll tack purity on with defilement.
> (Truth, merit and purity are a definite Buddhist holy trinity.)
Chris:
> Mindfulness

Melisande:
> So pleasure is NOT a hang-up of Buddhism, is it!!
> At least no one on Zen seems to know what to do with it
> (apart for a few ecdysiasts notable for their absence
> in these days of spamming .. kill-filed.  Lisa Edberg,
> Musfaad, Lilly, BB.. where are you?)
Ned:
> Hmm... Bliss.  You know, Nirvana/Enlightenment is on the
> list (#19).  But 'bliss' is often encountered in the Buddhist
> literature as an aspect or quality of enlightenment - a word
> which isn't as gross or obviously selfish as Ecstasy or
> Pleasure, but which connotes a 'good thing' that you're
> supposed to get from it.

Gileht:
>> Hey! Another teaching of the two truths.
Sphere:
> Two Truths...  I'm not sure that is on the list.
> I didn't see conventional vs. ultimate in a quick scan.

Chris M:
> "Hangup" is a counterculture idiom for some concept, doctrine, or
> attitude that one is attached to. In the sense here it is implied
> that one is attached to the word or concept to the exception of
> the actuality and/or goals of awakened consciousness (another
> concept to get hung up on).
Sphere:
> Oooo!  Actuality!  As in opening our eyes to Reality, right?

Melisande:
> *Bliss* doesn't have the same "feel" as *Pleasure* imho.
> So the question remains, ahem.  Why is pleasure so low on
> the totem pole that it doesn't rate an entry as a hang-up
> of Buddhism?
Sphere:
> Death!  Contemplating aging, dieing, and dead things.