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To: alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.magick.tyagi From: catherine yronwodeSubject: Re: The Winged-Disk and Hadit Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:27:25 GMT jk wrote: > > catherine yronwode wrote : > > > jk wrote: > > > > One reason Crowleyism as a going commercial concern is > > > still going is because of the ardent work done by old > > > hippies such as yourself in support of resurrecting, > > > reestablishing, and popularizing his religion and his > > > secret order. > > > Old hippies *such as myself* have done no such thing. > > > Old hippies *not a bit like me* have done it. > tell us what you see as the > main distinguishing characteristics between your crowd of > old hippies and those ones who pushed Crowleyism to its > present popularity. The ones who promoted Crowley to his present popularity differed from my circle in several ways: 1) They liked joining groups. 2) They had a monetary interest in claiming copyright ownership over his works rather than attempting to allow the works to lapse into the public domain. 3) They were eager to avoid open discussions of Crowley's racism and sexism and/or they were willing to falsely condone his racism and sexism as a "product of his times" and/or they sought to lamely excuse his racism and sexism as "irony" or "lampooning." > Was it just that your crowd was more skeptical? No. > Less attracted > to edgy occultism and more to pabulum? No. > Or just that you all > didn't do quite so much LSD as those other Berkeleyites? No. > Or what exactly? 1) My friends and i were less likely to be "joiners" than those who applied for admission to the Grady-era O.T.O. 2) Some of us preferred a personal approach to the study of magick rather than a curricular or initiatic approach. 3) Some of us were so politically committed to putting an end to institutionalized racism that we could not condone Crowley's racism, especially that which derived from the scurrilous racism of Sir Richard F. Burton. (cf. "Sepher Sephiroth" -- about which another thread has recently been running in alt.magick and which you might enjoy reading). LSD use, since you mention it, was widespread among all the hippies i knew, whether they became Crowleyites or not. > You wrote: > > "It still amazes me -- who first read to Crowley in my youth > and then saw him "discovered" by my fellow hippies---" > > This is intended to suggest you yourself "discovered" > Crowley before anyone in your generation, as if you'd > had it all under control before these "fellow hippies" > even applied to the class. I have no idea what you mean by "as if you'd had it all under control," but as far as i know, i was among the first, and probably actually the first, hippie-to-be in Berkeley to read the entire works of Aleister Crowley. No big deal there -- i just happened to be the child of antiquarian book dealer parents who acquired a huge estate filled with Victorian and Edwardian era occult books. I first read and catalogued an entire set of Crowley first editions in 1964, before the word hippie had been coined, when my friends and i called ourselves, "beatnik kids" (most of our parents were beatniks) and before someone coined the phrase "hip people," which later became "hippies." I have described how i came to read and study the works of Crowley, Waite, Mathers, et al in detail in another thread only yesterday; it was in the posts dealing with Crowley's anti-Jewish bias. You can find it via google, i am sure. By the way, one thing i mentioned in that thread -- which relates to the tarot -- is that in the library of the Mistress of the Lotus Lodge, there was not only a first edition copy of the Book of Thoth, but also an illustrated catalogue for the exhibition of 78 of Frieda Harris' original tarot paintings at the Berkeley Gallery in London in 1942 (the extra two Magician cards were apparently not exhibited there). To my knowledge, this booklet has never been republished. The uncredited text differs from Crowley's descriptions of the same cards in "The Equinox" and in "The Book of Thoth." Most importantly, this booklet also contains yet ANOTHER variant Hebrew letter ascription to The Star -- one not found elsewhere in any other Crowley texts. I was given this booklet as part of my wages for cataloguing the collection and i kept it for the next 35 or so years. Upon falling in love with my husband-to-be nagasiva in 1998, i presented it to him as gift when he moved in with me. I hope that he will transcribe it electronically some day, since i have not found evidence of its preservation or reprinting anywhere. The 1942 exhibition catalogue booklet is alluded to in the "Bibliographical note" section of "The Book of Thoth" -- pages xi and xii -- attributed to S. H. Soror I.W.E. 8=3 A.'. A.'." a.k.a. Martha Kunzel / Kuntzel (spellings vary in modern sources; some also give an umlaut over the "u" -- all of which which makes web searches tedious). Kuntzel's magical motto was "Ich Will Ess" ("I will it"); she was the notorious German member of the O.T.O. who, according to Mike Culkin, Peter Koenig, and others, believed that Adolf Hitler was her Magical Child and who unsuccessfully urged him to adopt Crowley's "Book of the Law" as his personal guide in life. Her note in the "Book of Thoth" would have written at the age of 87 -- although Koenig and others claim she had died in Germany in 1942 in a convalescent home and that Crowley used her name as a sock puppet. The Bibliographical note in "The Book of Thoth" specifically credits Crowley as the author of the 1942 booklet that accompanied the Harris paintings -- but internally the booklet's text appears to be by Harris, for at its close thanks are given to "an expert" [presumably Crowley] for supplying the Hebrew attributions for the cards. Of course, Crowley often played what we now call "sock puppet" games, and i personally think the writing style in the 1942 booklet is his, not Harris's. The fact that Crowley had many creditors in 1942 may have prompted his wish for his name not to appear in the exhibition at the Berkeley Galleries or on "The Book of Thoth" two years later, but in internal documents to Harris, and to a photoengraver, he asserted his 2/3 ownership of the cards. Likewise, in a bizarre letter Crowley wrote to himself and claimed came from "The Hidden Masters," he said, addressing himself: "19. Too well aware that in the past your work has been stolen and exploited by unscrupulous rascals and also that doctrinal argument of a lightly technical kind may all too frequently prove rather hard for a jury, you took the precaution of introducing certain symbols into the designs [ of he cards] of such a character that the most stupid would be compelled to acknowledge your authorship of the Work. Your conduct is abominable and inexcusable to allow Lady Harris to issue a catalogue crammed with the grossest errors of fact, blunders of scholarship, irrelevancies and absurdities; to allow her to make herself the laughing-stock of London by larying [sic] claim to the authorship of pictures of which all artists know her to be utterly incapable, her work having been that of a wealthy amateur persistent enough to acquire a good technique but with no personality, no "message" groping in Bloomsbury forgs [sic -- fogs?] for the parasitic adulation of a gaggle of sycophants. and, in an equally bizarre "reply" to himself, he wrote I do however most strenuously deny participation in the hoax. This was perpetrated by Lady Harris without my knowledge or consent; I only learnt of the exhibitions, in the first case several days after the opening, from information supplied by loyal friends. Full text at http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/crowley-harris.html For what it's worth -- and in either case, no matter whether Crowley wrote the booklet or Harris wrote it with his "ascriptions" -- the odd ascription given to The Star therein is worthy of note as yet another of Crowley's "blinds" or ruses regarding the Star-Emperor switch -- and it predates and contradicts Crowley's earlier ascriptions AND the official switch from Tzaddi to Heh that first aired in 1944 in "The Book of Thoth." > You certainly can't believe > this is factually true I am not trying to make some idle boast or paint myself as special -- but i truly know of no other hippies who had read all of Crowley's and Waite's books before 1965 -- or who COULD have, given that in California, where the hippie movement first began, there were no university collections of these books and most of them were out of print at the time. By the way, the copies of the Crowley books i catalogued and which my parents sold were bought up piecemeal, not as a lot, and were consequently distributed widely in the Bay Area over the course of several years. Some went to the owners of what is now Shamballah Books, others to people now in the O.T.O. The copy of "777" was stolen by Walter Breen (a member of science fiction fandom, the husband of the author Marion Zimmer Bradley, a published authority on early US coins, and a convicted child molester). Check old google posts for my account of how Walter Breen stole "777" from our family's book shop circa 1964. > the very people who > enabled her [cat’s] amazement were people now considerably > "over 40", indeed people of her own generation. Not so. The Mistress of the Lotus Lodge, whose death facilitated my study of Crowley, Waite, et al, was in her 80s when she died. She was about the age of my grandmothers at the time, not a member of my generation. My parents bought her estate. They were younger then than i am now (my mother was 49 and my step-father was 43 when the library was purchased; i am now 56) -- and they were not members of my generation either. > Furthermore, > there are plenty of people "under 40" capable of intelligently > and skeptically reading Crowley I was not speaking of the age of 40 with respect to purported wisdom, rather to with respect to *birth year* -- to the fact that Crowley's reputation is higher now, among people born after 1960, than it was and is among people of my grandparents' or parents' or my generations -- people born between 1880 and 1950. Good luck to you in pursuit of knowledge, Jess, and best wishes for success in your continued study of the tarot. cat yronwode Herb and Root Magic http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html ----------------------------------------------------- To: alt.magick From: catherine yronwode Subject: Re: The Winged-Disk and Hadit Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 19:06:57 GMT jk wrote: > > catherine yronwode wrote in message news:<3F05B7F6.FB44004E@luckymojo.com>... > > > It still amazes me -- who first read to Crowley in my youth > > and then saw him "discovered" by my fellow hippies, who > > enjoyed Crowley's style but thought out things for > > themselves -- to see the latter day cult of Crowleyism > > flourish among those under 40 years old. > > One reason Crowleyism as a going commercial concern is still going > is because of the ardent work done by old hippies such as yourself in > support of resurrecting, reestablishing, and popularizing his religion > and his secret order. Old hippies *such as myself* have done no such thing. Old hippies *not a bit like me* have done it. > Your attempt to anoint yourself and your > generation as superior to those your junior is certainly > understandable, given that you'll all soon begin your mass exits from > this world, but once again the facts betray you. I said, "it still amazes me." The word "amaze" describes my mental state with regard to the subject at hand. I did not write "it makes me feel superior." The word "superior" does not describe my mental state with regard to the subject at hand. Moving past the spurious emotions you have injected into the discussion, i would like to note for the benefit of other readers that i was not speaking of generational matters at all. I was speaking of the amazing (to me) fact that people would adopt as a religious text something that had *formerly* been regarded as, in the words of Secret Chief, a booklet "...penned by a bisexual junkie in Cairo on his honeymoon in 1904." The subject here is the effects of the passage of time, not my generation as contrasted with any other generation. My interest in how the passage of time affects religious texts has been brought to the fore recently due to some conversations siva and i have had about the arguments made pro and con by scholarly authors such as John Dominic Crossan ("Who Killed Jesus?") and James Carroll ("The Sword of Constantine") with respect to the historicity of Jesus. In these books it is taken as a working model that if there is a historical core to any given religion (a Jesus who lived, preached, and was crucified; a "bisexual junkie in Cairo on his honeymoon in 1904"), that within one hundred years of the personage's death, his or her role in history would begin to submerge and in its place there would arise a fable-making tradition that worked to both excuse and ennoble the venerated person's most inexplicably anti-social acts (Jesus blighting a farmer's fig tree, Crowley shitting on a friend's rug). In discussion with siva, i had argued -- just as an intellectual standpoint, not out of complete conviction -- that although such religion-making was understandable in the largely illiterate era of Jesus, about whom there are only one actual historical account (a glancing mention by Flavius Josephus), such apotheosis would be unlikely to occur if the personage in question lived during an era of great literacy and had left many records of his or her life. Yet, in the case of Aleister Crowley, it does seem to be happening. I was born the year Crowley died. To me, he was a junkie and a poet (just like my own poet-uncle John Manfredi), a good writer and thinker in a field with few good writers and thinkers, a fairly good word-puzzle maker and symbol manipulator, a spoofer and joker, and a man with some talent for arranging titty-shows and sex acts on stage. And that is ALL he was to me. However, not 50 years have passed since his death and already i have heard people say that he was a "spiritual adept" and that they have "accepted 'The Book of the Law'" as a religious text. It amazes me -- but only because it flies in the face of my theory that this would not happen with such rapidity in an era of wide-spread literacy. Finally, as an aside, i would like to place my amazement at the seemingly imminent deification of Crowley on a scale of relative amazement, so to that effect i will note that what amazes me MORE than the fact that some people take "The Book of the Law" as a spiritual "law," is the fact that even more people regard the fictional works of the anthropologist Carlos Castaneda as quasi-religious handbooks. (See http://skepdic.com/castaneda.html for a brief skeptical overview of the Castaneda hoax.) cat yronwode Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F0F6427.AC4E28AC@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: The Winged-Disk and Hadit References: <10cff505.0307021601.2d4bd6e@posting.google.com> <3F05B7F6.FB44004E@luckymojo.com> <3F072424.422EE490@luckymojo.com> <3F0B8DEF.AB23B3C8@luckymojo.com> <3F0C8263.C90845B8@luckymojo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 141 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:18:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1057972693 209.204.150.173 (Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:18:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:18:13 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:351548 alt.tarot:117714 alt.magick.tyagi:40357 { Secret Chief } wrote: > > catherine yronwode wrote: > > > You were doing okay there until you started making up > > fantasy roles for me and guessing my reactions to people. > > Well, I got a couple things wrong (Woodstock for instance; in > retrospect, that was more of a transition point). In my opinion, the true opening of the hippie movement to the public in the US was the Great Human Be-In in San Francisco. Woodstock was later, far, far later. In the UK, i believe that the Games for May marked the opening of the underground movement to the public. > But I think my basic thrust was about right: there were several waves > of counterculture. As there are several waves of *every* form of popular cultural expression. > You, being college-aged in the early 60's and > being the child of atheist antiquarian bookdealers, got in more or > less on the ground floor. That's right. > As I read COTO history, the "old hippy" leaders seem to represent a > later stratum of counterculture. During the formative experiences > you've detailed, Hymenaeus B was still working for the government and > Hymenaeus A was still in underoos. (Heidrick might be an exception). I believe you have your Hymenaeae reversed: B was still in diapers (underoos did not yet exist, actually) while A -- who was not a hippie, by the way, was in the military. > Hence I'd endorse your assertion that it wasn't "old hippies like > you" who started the Caliphate. No one said that any hippies started the Caliphate -- only that they popularized Crowley. > Your disagreement with them seems in large part to > be a disagreement over what the counterculture should > look like. Not so. First, i would not characterize myself as having a "disagreement" with the O.T.O. It takes two to tangle -- and if any of them even know i exist, it is because my husband is a member. Second, i do not consider any authoritarian, top-down, hierarchical religious system to be "countercultural." The Caliphate O.T.O. is, in my opinion, no more or less than a clear example of "old aeon" recidivist culture, a church whose services are modeled so closely on the Catholic Church as to be mappable against it point for point, and whose continuing legal battles for copyright ownership of its scriptures are paralleled closely by the Church of Scientology, with which it not-so-coincidentally shared some early social overlaps. > Much of this difference of perspective stems from your obvious > idealism, which the Caliphate, like so many 70's counterculture > products (Hell's Angels, Manson, Weathermen), does not share. You mentioned these three examples of what you called "70s counterculture" before and i did not take the time to correct you, but now i shall, with no malice, just for the record: The Manson Family had lived together as a group, committed their famous mass murders, and were all in jail awaiting trial by the summer of 1969. Thus they were not an example of the 1970s counterculture. The Hell's Angels had first formed in the 1940s, and by July 4, 1947, they had already terrorized the town of Hollister, California, an event that was fictionalized to great popular acclaim in a 1954 movie called "The Wild One" starring Marlon Brando and Lee Marvin, and directed by Laslo Benedek under the production of Stanley Kramer. So they were not an example of 1970s counterculture either. You may be thinking of their 1965 conflict with a group Viet Nam War protesters or their disastrous presence at a 1969 Rolling Stones concert in Altamont, California -- but those events all took place in the 1960s, not the 1970s. The Weathermen (also known later as the Weather Undergound) formed in 1969, that is, during the 1960s. They ceased activity in 1976, the middle of the 1970s. If you were to ask me for examples of 1970s counterculture, i would list Cheech and Chong and the Firesign Theater with their wink-and-nod drug references The sudden public awareness of feminism which had started a century earlier, of course, but in the 1970s became a matter of wide public debate A shift in men's hair styles from full beards and long hair parted in the middle (1960s) to trimmed mustaches and long sideburns with relatively short head hair parted on the sides (1970s). The sudden availability of "hippie style" dresses in chain department stores, whereas previously they had to be hand made by their wearers or by skilled hippie seamstresses such as myself; this influx of ready-made hippie and pseudo-hippie clothes put a rapid end to most hippie seamstress businesses. The rise in suburban back-to-the-land-ism, as exemplified by rising subscriptions to Organic Gardening Magazine (founded in the 1940s) and and the founding of the Mother Earth News in 1970. > This non-idealism pisses you off. Uh-oh, you're trying to read my mind again -- and making a poor show of it. I am not pissed off, and you are inaccurate to claim i am. > This isn't me guessing your > reactions to people, it is glaringly obvious from your posts. Please, can we stick to the topic and just forget your failed mentalism act? Thanks. cat yronwode Hoodoo and Blues Lyrics --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html
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