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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.traditional.witchcraft From: 333Subject: War on High Magick Declared!!!!! (was Use of magic to banish a ...) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:54:24 GMT 50010730 VI! om Hail Satan! David Cantu: >> ...High magick itself is now under attack. you got it! I'm here to be the critical revealer of the Seedy Underside of "High Magic(K!)"! catherine yronwode : >Are you sure "High magick itself is now under attack"? ... of course! I posited that Hermeticism *itself* is a means of promoting ignorance, and that Hermetics should abandon their armchairs and magick circles as quickly as they argue for the abandonment of spellkits. >> [...] If the [magical attack on Joel] >> attack was meant to push you off the NG, then by leaving, you are >> allowing the other to succeed and allowing their Low magick methods >> to triumph. presuming that it isn't all part of his fear and overactive imagination, yes. what with all this Chinese Fingertrapping Magic (which I find interesting and amusing, but he's not going to elaborate on that for us -- one of the more substantive comments he's made on the subject of magic), I have returned to my normal mode of interaction, noticing that Joel has begun to ignore me. >That's right. Eslewhere i noted that Joel has at lease SIX magical >courses of action open to him.... you're so helpful. :* >It further occurs to me that some people have found both comfort and >useful aids in the book "Psychic Self Defense" by Dionne Fortune of the >Golden Dawn. Dion Fortune, yes. she was afraid of cat attacks or something. her pseudonym comes from a motto having to do with Luck and God, if memory serves. I think her street name was Violet Firth. >Another book that i recommend is "Spiritual Cleansing" by Draja >Mickaharic (in print from Samuel Weiser). and available from Lucky Mojo! >Are you referring to the post in which he told me i had 24 hours to >apologise to him or it was "War" -- or the post where he announced that >he had sent messages to the abuse department at my isp in an attempt to >get me taken off usenet? Wiggy babbled something about haunting his enemies forever. >> Recent posts have intimated that "High Magick" is an out and out >> fraud created by a culturally elite ruling class and has no pedigree >> going back beyond Crowley, who according to this point of view, >> made it all up for profit. attention-getting devices devoid of liberated perspectives on magic, co-opting world mystical tradition authority by pretense and out-and-out FRAUD (you got it!), peppered with lies, pretense to power and authority they never had, etc., etc. such individuals continue their nefarious activities to THIS DAY! is this "High Magick"? there is good reason (read his autobiography or any decent biography on the man) that Crowley's spiritual ascension claims were FALSE CLAIMS OF ATTAINMENT, and that his "High Magick" is a spin-off of Goldawnian fabricators (Fraline Anna Sprengel indeed!). > I think you are referring here to a post or posts made by siva > -- and if so, i think you grossly and unfairly mischaracterize > what he wrote. naw, he's finally understood my antagonism to "High Magick" in these posts concerning its putrid and laughable "authority", especially as it tries to put down "Low Magick" and claim that a) all real magic is mental; there is no power in magical objects except what the magician gives to them in hir imagination b) all real magic is "Divine MagicK", having to do with mystical objectives like 'return'; the discovery of the 'Universal Medicine'; the 'Philosopher's Stone'; attainment of, encounter with, or tapping into "God" (as if there is only one of these) c) all real magic is studying along a "path" and includes 'progress' or 'evolution' within a stepped lattice defined by Hermetics after mystics of other sorts within Rosicrucian and quasi-masonic bureaucracies, the "Outer Order" of which may be found in some secret societies. not only does this completely displace folk magic and shamanism (both of which I love *also*, along with the finer parts of ceremonialism and hermeticism), but they perpetuate outright lies about the people, activities, and authority which may rationally be asserted in association with Hermeticism (e.g. that Crowley was a yoga master; that the activities surrounding notorious magicians and authors are "excusable" because of their "lofty spiritual status". complete and utter bullshit. > He spoke of magical orders and other systems of hierarchical > pay-for-grades as being potential frauds. dunno about the pay-for-grades, but they do seem obviously fraudulent, and Crowley was part of at least Masonic arrangements of this type. > But he himself is a member of the (c)OTO, you know, so he does not > think that such orders are de facto frauds. it is true that I am a member of The One True OTO (tm) as a discipline. I don't think they are de facto frauds, but those who involve themselves with orders and orgs may be completely self-deluded and have no hint of what constitutes "spiritual development". I've seen some exceptions in my day and do not assert much beyond this at this time except to take to task the outrageous ignorance of the pompous and arrogant Hermetics! contradictory experiences welcome! please provide details of the fabulously advanced individuals whom you have met that are running your favourite esoteric orders! > ...he himself maintains one of the largest Crowley texts archives > on the net, indeed true. more than this, I've defended the man against many of his (ignorant) detractors, having made a minor study of his texts and those who today favour them. it should also be mentioned that I am the owner of one of the longer-running elists on Thelema, both pre-Crowley (if such a thing exists) and modern manifestations. > and in no place did he say that Crowley "made it all up for profit." not quite, though I might have said that he provided his expositions in order to draw attention to himself and develop a cult in his wake. this is a valuable tack to take with Crowley, since his activities and expressions do not really conform to conventional spiritual norms. >> The fact that this view is being promoted by profiteers of Low >> magick artifacts should not be lost on the reader. please substantiate this claim. who is profitting and how? > David, this is not ABOUT "High Magick versus Low Magick" .... true, there is no such thing as "Low Magick". it doesn't EXIST, because Crowley defined his MagicK as mystical. the rest of it was "black magic", and has no trek with the supposed "K & C of the HGA". cf. his "Book Four, Liber ABA" for substantiation. > This is about mutual respect and depth of study and understanding. if only it were. perhaps this will arise. >> this point of view and the recent pouring in of posters from apshm >> (hexes...) carries a certain danger for the future of this group. hey David, if only you were outside your perspective, looking at the wider view of magic and looking into the alt.magick newsgroup for *years* seeing the influx of Hermetics for whom "High Magick" was the only magic. it can be rather nauseating. > ...This poses no "danger" to any newsgroup. oh it does to those who cannot handle exploding their dogmatic notions about what magic includes, thinking that "Low Magick" is fraudulent, taking this directly into the newsgroup discussions and attempting (such as has Wiggy) to send those who disagree with him to 'Low Magick newsgroups'. the weak of position need a protective newsgroup shelter in order to preserve their self-deceptions, perpetuate their ancient and not-so-ancient lies, and preserve their flagging integrity. >> While this group DOES use the K in Magick (something apshm >> does not) the FAQ explains this usage. did you read it? >> it has come to our attention lately that the charter for this group >> is more general FIRST QUESTION IN THE NEWSGROUP FAQ: 11 Why do you spell (alt.)magick with a K? alt.magick was created with a 'k' to avoid confusion with stage magic. @01 'Magick' is a spelling popularly associated with Aleister Crowley, yet the spelling precedes him by hundreds of years. @02 Many people presume a difference between conjuring tricks and occult spells; between magic and magick. There may be grounds for comparing them metaphorically to chemistry and alchemy. Sr. Virakam and others maintain that it separated Crowley from his competitors (and thus served as a marketing or elitist scheme). @03 Symonds and Grant contend that the 'k' is a conceit of Crowley's and that it is related to potentially dangerous ("demonic and chaotic") energies, as well as life-oriented symbols such as 'khu' and 'kteis', for which they say it stands, "the complement to the wand (or phallus) which is used by the Magician in certain aspects of the Great Work." @04 get with the program. >> and if I came tomorrow and found it overrun with Santerians talking >> about how many chickens they have killed then that would still be >> within the boundaries of this group. But it would Not be a good >> thing in my eyes. offerings to orishas/loas/gods/spirits is not in itself magic. why you confuse this with what you are calling "Low Magick" is part of why you are so distressed about the wider significance of the term 'magic' and why a disruption of Hermetic exchange concerns you. >> I place great value in the ability of the path of "High" magick >> as a way of growing an individual beyond the box of society. yes, the Great Ascension Scheme of the Hermetic is well-known by those who have frequented alt.magick. for those who have perfected their Light Bodies, I have offered a very powerful (and dangerous!) Final Rite of Ascension at: http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/ascension.hwm (only for Adepts! enjoy the Realm of Light, O magician!) >> In my mind Low magick is a cultural trap of its own societal making. one may argue the same about "High Magick". justify the claim. I think I've provided a good argument and some substantiation, with references, for the latter. you and your cohorts haven't really risen to the occasion to justify your claims about "Low Magick" at all, just spewed some things and hoped others would join in the flammage. the problem is that those who got sick of the flammage have responded with some perspectives of their own (namely my own challenge to Hermetics everywhere) and now you're worried about the health of the newsgroup. how weak was its immune system? sri catyananda: > ...hermetic magic and folk magic offer teachings that may > attempt to, but cannot be guaranteed to encourage the development > of individuals of deep learning and controlled power what encourages deep learning in the practice of folk magic? after all, there is no faux context of 'spiritual development' and how the magic can do more than get what you want, is there? there is no condemnatory rhetoric about how giving out spells and doing magic without absorbing the memes of Western Esoteric Tradition (WET) is "dangerous" and "foolish", is there? > who can interact with anyone at any level with courtesy and > honour. I don't see how either Hermeticism or folk magic encourage these. folk magic seems relatively silent on the matter, leaving that to religion (quite reasonably, I might add, perhaps I'm overlooking something here). Hermeticism develops self-aggrandizement, because it has no handle on mysticism, faking it from the beginning and founded upon fraudulent attainment and charlatanry (cf. those great mages like Cagliostro! phew!). >> Fight the fight Joel, it is even bigger than you, though taking it >> home may be the only way to see that. you'll find that there are others just as deluded characterizing those whose magic they know little about in equally foolish ways. the 'CM' of Neopagans will sometimes achieve this kind of demonization ("Ceremonial Magicians" whom we are not, no no no). blessed beast! 333 -- emailed replies may be posted ----- "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" ----- "that which liberates is ignorance" http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html hoodoo catalogue: send postal address to catalogues@luckymojo.com
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