a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


War on High Magick Declared!!!!!

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.traditional.witchcraft
From: 333 
Subject: War on High Magick Declared!!!!! (was Use of magic to banish a ...)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:54:24 GMT

50010730 VI! om Hail Satan!

David Cantu:
>> ...High magick itself is now under attack.  

you got it! I'm here to be the critical revealer of the
Seedy Underside of "High Magic(K!)"!

catherine yronwode :
>Are you sure "High magick itself is now under attack"? ...

of course! I posited that Hermeticism *itself* is a means of
promoting ignorance, and that Hermetics should abandon their
armchairs and magick circles as quickly as they argue for 
the abandonment of spellkits.

>> [...] If the [magical attack on Joel]
>> attack was meant to push you off the NG, then by leaving, you are 
>> allowing the other to succeed and allowing their Low magick methods 
>> to triumph.

presuming that it isn't all part of his fear and overactive 
imagination, yes. what with all this Chinese Fingertrapping
Magic (which I find interesting and amusing, but he's not
going to elaborate on that for us -- one of the more
substantive comments he's made on the subject of magic), 
I have returned to my normal mode of interaction, 
noticing that Joel has begun to ignore me.

>That's right. Eslewhere i noted that Joel has at lease SIX magical
>courses of action open to him....

you're so helpful. :*

>It further occurs to me that some people have found both comfort and
>useful aids in the book "Psychic Self Defense" by Dionne Fortune of the
>Golden Dawn. 

Dion Fortune, yes. she was afraid of cat attacks or something.
her pseudonym comes from a motto having to do with Luck and God,
if memory serves. I think her street name was Violet Firth. 

>Another book that i recommend is "Spiritual Cleansing" by Draja
>Mickaharic (in print from Samuel Weiser). 

and available from Lucky Mojo!

>Are you referring to the post in which he told me i had 24 hours to
>apologise to him or it was "War" -- or the post where he announced that
>he had sent messages to the abuse department at my isp in an attempt to
>get me taken off usenet? 

Wiggy babbled something about haunting his enemies forever.

>> Recent posts have intimated that "High Magick" is an out and out 
>> fraud created by a culturally elite ruling class and has no pedigree 
>> going back beyond Crowley, who according to this point of view,  
>> made it all up for profit.  

attention-getting devices devoid of liberated perspectives on
magic, co-opting world mystical tradition authority by pretense
and out-and-out FRAUD (you got it!), peppered with lies,
pretense to power and authority they never had, etc., etc.

such individuals continue their nefarious activities to THIS DAY!
is this "High Magick"? there is good reason (read his autobiography
or any decent biography on the man) that Crowley's spiritual
ascension claims were FALSE CLAIMS OF ATTAINMENT, and that his
"High Magick" is a spin-off of Goldawnian fabricators (Fraline
Anna Sprengel indeed!).

> I think you are referring here to a post or posts made by siva
>  -- and if so, i think you grossly and unfairly mischaracterize 
> what he wrote. 

naw, he's finally understood my antagonism to "High Magick" in
these posts concerning its putrid and laughable "authority",
especially as it tries to put down "Low Magick" and claim that

	a) all real magic is mental; there is no power in
	   magical objects except what the magician gives
	   to them in hir imagination

	b) all real magic is "Divine MagicK", having to do
	   with mystical objectives like 'return'; the
	   discovery of the 'Universal Medicine'; the
	   'Philosopher's Stone'; attainment of, encounter
	   with, or tapping into "God" (as if there is only
	   one of these)

	c) all real magic is studying along a "path" and
	   includes 'progress' or 'evolution' within a
	   stepped lattice defined by Hermetics after
	   mystics of other sorts within Rosicrucian and
	   quasi-masonic bureaucracies, the "Outer Order"
	   of which may be found in some secret societies.

not only does this completely displace folk magic and shamanism
(both of which I love *also*, along with the finer parts of
ceremonialism and hermeticism), but they perpetuate outright
lies about the people, activities, and authority which may
rationally be asserted in association with Hermeticism (e.g.
that Crowley was a yoga master; that the activities surrounding
notorious magicians and authors are "excusable" because of
their "lofty spiritual status". complete and utter bullshit.

> He spoke of magical orders and other systems of hierarchical
> pay-for-grades as being potential frauds. 

dunno about the pay-for-grades, but they do seem obviously fraudulent,
and Crowley was part of at least Masonic arrangements of this type.

> But he himself is a member of the (c)OTO, you know, so he does not 
> think that such orders are de facto frauds. 

it is true that I am a member of The One True OTO (tm) as a discipline.
I don't think they are de facto frauds, but those who involve themselves
with orders and orgs may be completely self-deluded and have no hint of 
what constitutes "spiritual development". I've seen some exceptions in 
my day and do not assert much beyond this at this time except to take
to task the outrageous ignorance of the pompous and arrogant Hermetics!

contradictory experiences welcome! please provide details of the
fabulously advanced individuals whom you have met that are running
your favourite esoteric orders!

> ...he himself maintains one of the largest Crowley texts archives 
> on the net, 

indeed true. more than this, I've defended the man against many of
his (ignorant) detractors, having made a minor study of his texts
and those who today favour them. it should also be mentioned that
I am the owner of one of the longer-running elists on Thelema,
both pre-Crowley (if such a thing exists) and modern manifestations.

> and in no place did he say that Crowley "made it all up for profit." 

not quite, though I might have said that he provided his expositions
in order to draw attention to himself and develop a cult in his wake.
this is a valuable tack to take with Crowley, since his activities
and expressions do not really conform to conventional spiritual norms.

>> The fact that this view is being promoted by profiteers of Low
>> magick artifacts should not be lost on the reader.  

please substantiate this claim. who is profitting and how?

> David, this is not ABOUT "High Magick versus Low Magick" ....

true, there is no such thing as "Low Magick". it doesn't EXIST,
because Crowley defined his MagicK as mystical. the rest of it
was "black magic", and has no trek with the supposed "K & C of
the HGA". cf. his "Book Four, Liber ABA" for substantiation.

> This is about mutual respect and depth of study and understanding. 

if only it were. perhaps this will arise.

>> this point of view and the recent pouring in of posters from apshm 
>> (hexes...) carries a certain danger for the future of this group.

hey David, if only you were outside your perspective, looking at the
wider view of magic and looking into the alt.magick newsgroup for
*years* seeing the influx of Hermetics for whom "High Magick" was
the only magic. it can be rather nauseating.

> ...This poses no "danger" to any newsgroup. 

oh it does to those who cannot handle exploding their dogmatic
notions about what magic includes, thinking that "Low Magick"
is fraudulent, taking this directly into the newsgroup
discussions and attempting (such as has Wiggy) to send those
who disagree with him to 'Low Magick newsgroups'. the weak of
position need a protective newsgroup shelter in order to
preserve their self-deceptions, perpetuate their ancient and
not-so-ancient lies, and preserve their flagging integrity.

>> While this group DOES use the K in Magick (something apshm 
>> does not) 

the FAQ explains this usage. did you read it?

>> it has come to our attention lately that the charter for this group 
>> is more general 


11 Why do you spell (alt.)magick with a K?

        alt.magick was created with a 'k' to avoid confusion with stage 
        magic. @01  

        'Magick' is a spelling popularly associated with Aleister 
        Crowley, yet the spelling precedes him by hundreds of years. @02

        Many people presume a difference between conjuring tricks and 
        occult spells; between magic and magick. There may be grounds 
        for comparing them metaphorically to chemistry and alchemy.   

        Sr. Virakam and others maintain that it separated Crowley from 
        his competitors (and thus served as a marketing or elitist 
        scheme). @03

        Symonds and Grant contend that the 'k' is a conceit of 
        Crowley's and that it is related to potentially dangerous 
        ("demonic and chaotic") energies, as well as life-oriented 
        symbols such as 'khu' and 'kteis', for which they say it 
        stands, "the complement to the wand (or phallus) which is 
        used by the Magician in certain aspects of the Great Work." @04 

get with the program.

>> and if I came tomorrow and found it overrun with Santerians talking 
>> about how many chickens they have killed then that would still be 
>> within the boundaries of this group. But it would Not be a good 
>> thing in my eyes.

offerings to orishas/loas/gods/spirits is not in itself magic. why
you confuse this with what you are calling "Low Magick" is part of
why you are so distressed about the wider significance of the term
'magic' and why a disruption of Hermetic exchange concerns you.

>> I place great value in the ability of the path of "High" magick 
>> as a way of growing an individual beyond the box of society.  

yes, the Great Ascension Scheme of the Hermetic is well-known by
those who have frequented alt.magick. for those who have perfected
their Light Bodies, I have offered a very powerful (and dangerous!)
Final Rite of Ascension at:

(only for Adepts!  enjoy the Realm of Light, O magician!)

>> In my mind Low magick is a cultural trap of its own societal making.

one may argue the same about "High Magick". justify the claim.
I think I've provided a good argument and some substantiation,
with references, for the latter. you and your cohorts haven't
really risen to the occasion to justify your claims about "Low
Magick" at all, just spewed some things and hoped others would
join in the flammage. the problem is that those who got sick of
the flammage have responded with some perspectives of their
own (namely my own challenge to Hermetics everywhere) and now
you're worried about the health of the newsgroup. how weak was
its immune system?

sri catyananda: 
> ...hermetic magic and folk magic offer teachings that may 
> attempt to, but cannot be guaranteed to encourage the development 
> of individuals of deep learning and controlled power 

what encourages deep learning in the practice of folk magic?
after all, there is no faux context of 'spiritual development'
and how the magic can do more than get what you want, is there?

there is no condemnatory rhetoric about how giving out spells
and doing magic without absorbing the memes of Western Esoteric
Tradition (WET) is "dangerous" and "foolish", is there?
> who can interact with anyone at any level with courtesy and 
> honour. 

I don't see how either Hermeticism or folk magic encourage these.
folk magic seems relatively silent on the matter, leaving that
to religion (quite reasonably, I might add, perhaps I'm overlooking
something here). Hermeticism develops self-aggrandizement, because
it has no handle on mysticism, faking it from the beginning and
founded upon fraudulent attainment and charlatanry (cf. those
great mages like Cagliostro! phew!).

>> Fight the fight Joel, it is even bigger than you, though taking it 
>> home may be the only way to see that.

you'll find that there are others just as deluded characterizing
those whose magic they know little about in equally foolish ways.
the 'CM' of Neopagans will sometimes achieve this kind of
demonization ("Ceremonial Magicians" whom we are not, no no no).

blessed beast!

emailed replies may be posted  -----   "sa avidya ya vimuktaye"   ----- 
"that which liberates is ignorance"
    hoodoo catalogue: send postal address to

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races