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Various: James Frazer, Magick and _The Golden Bough_

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.mythology,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.pagan.magick
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Various: James Frazer, Magick and _The Golden Bough_
Date: 12 Jan 1998 14:59:15 -0800

~From: asialaw@aloha.net

93,

I can't keep quite any longer.  Someone actually said:

>Frazier was a reductionist pig who equated "magic" with "primitive science".

Poor Frazier. He deserves a break. The science/magic identity was accepted
by AC (and me :-))and encompassed within his definition of "magick".
Summoning the spirits of electrical energy to make themselves visible in
the incandessant triangle of art of a light bulb filiment is a magickal act
of causing change in conformity with will per AC.  (See "Magick in Theory &
Practice") Aren't *all* concious acts magickal? Of course, if you want to
make your own definitions of the terms "magic" and "science" to be mutually
exclusive then that is your right, but you shouldn't assume that any
definations are "always" valid (See Tao Teh Ching, Chap. 1) or for that
matter invalid.

The study of alchemy does not necessarily support your point of the mutual
excluviseness of "magick" and "science" as you seem to have convinced
yourself. You might want to think of the example of the work of Paracelous
in this regard.  Illustrative, while admittedly not despositive, is one
suggested root of the word "chemistry" is the arab "alchemy" (the Greek
"kimiya" may be the root of both but in any case there is no denying a
direct relationship).  Some sources (Needham "Science and Civilization in
China" vol __) take this further by giving the root of "alchemy" as the
arabic for "China" or "from China". Chinese influence in this regard was
influential in the near east and thereby in the West in any case. (Btw, gun
powder was a byproduct of a Chinese attempt at a longlife potion or type of
AMRITA-- science not science?  The compass was invented for use in
fengshui.) Of course, the practices of alchemy in China can not be taken
out of the context of all other disciplines of "wu shing hsueh"  the study
of the Five Elements and their interaction which is the Chinese magickal
system and forms the base for all esoteric studies and exercises including
magico-religious ritual, medicine, astrology, music, martial arts and
indeed all endevours if done in harmony with the Tao. Science and magick
(and art) have only become seperate in *modern* western practices where the
element of spirit is relegated to a back seat to the other four western
elements which are the subject of "science" as it is most commonly defined
today.

Is mathematics a science?  Is Liber AL a work of mathmatics?  I'd answer
yes to both questions.  Isn't science a methodology that can be applied to
spiritual matters.  If yes, then we don't need to rip the frontspiece from
our Equinox's and we can certainly accept the Jungian interpretation of
alchemy and the roll up your sleeves and "reduce you pig" work that is
defined as science.  Here is something to consider:  what is the
relationship between Frazier's "sympathetic magic", QBL, I Ching, the work
of Lineaus, the history of encyclopedias, and what cognate ideas are
discernable in the development of modern science?

Much to my dismay, in talking about Frazier and his GB no one (to my
notice) has brought up his discussion of magic by sympathy and contagion.
Are these obsolete?  Is Levi-Strauss obsolete (also left out of the
discussion)?  Don't modern semioticians like Umberto Eco owe a great debt
to Frazer?

As only one person has mentioned GB was originally published in 12 vols.
The first ed. was (off the top of my head) like 1902.  Frazier has
linguistic and antropological examples from across time and across the
globe.  There are of course many errors.  Whether or not there is or is not
an "ubermyth" of the once and future king based on vegatative cycles is
not, imo, a matter that can be definatively settled on either side, believe
what you will. (Personally, I am sympethetic to the positive answer here.)
However, that Frazier was an intellectual pioneer that struck a great blow
in the development of the new aeon by offering a blow against the
originality of the symbols of Christianity and at the same time affirming
the connection of all humanity to a methodology of ordering the world which
has been corrupted in the West by materialism of the highest degree but
still remains most obviously in the "myths and superstitions" of cultures
like China and India, for example, whose continuity has preserved much of
the ancient gestalt (which I definately believe has universal elements).
(There is an essay by D. H. Lawrance which would be great to quote here
with its refrences to things which he termed "antideluvian" but I can't
remember what it is called.  Btw, is "Women in Love" obsolete too?)  I can
not accept that GB is "obsolete", as that term includes the meaning
"without value".

No one has mentioned that sometime around 1972 there was a revised GB which
was edited by someone to fix Frazier's errors.  I have a copy but it is in
storage thousands of miles from here.  Anyone have any comments on this
edition?  Is this edition less obsolete?

Finally, a toast to the memory of Mr. Frazier offered by someone who read
his "Golden Bough" first in childhood and who has never forgotten the great
debt which he owes for the roads which that old green book by a dead guy
opened unto him.  Who luvs ya baby?
____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________

~From: "-H." 

Greetings Brothers & Sisters,

>
>>Frazier was a reductionist pig who equated "magic" with "primitive science".

See my emendation of this line to read "Frazier was a reductionist and a
running dog capitalist pig."  

>
>Poor Frazier. He deserves a break. The science/magic identity was accepted
>by AC (and me :-))and encompassed within his definition of "magick".
>Summoning the spirits of electrical energy to make themselves visible in
>the incandessant triangle of art of a light bulb filiment is a magickal act
>of causing change in conformity with will per AC. 

Frazier would point out here (yes, I summoned his shade last night and we
had an extensive conversation on why he was sooooo soooooooory about the
whole thing...) that summoning spirits rather than walking across the room
to flip the switch reveals that you have mistaken science as a primitive
form of magick.

But seriously...Frazier constantly equates "primitive" (I would think his
use of words like "primitive" and "archaic" would be enough of a giveaway)
magickal/religious acts with poorly understood attempts to manipulate the
environment along the lines of the scientific method.  Wittgenstein's point
is that assuming people who could build cities, develope extensive
pharmacopeias, ect. were not ignorant of science.  Therefore, when doing
"magick" they were doing magick and they knew they were doing magick.  On
Frazier's view, they did not do magick but in actuallity we can tell they
were doing science, only because they are primitive their science is
stooopid.  I find this view insulting, patronizing and reductionistic.


>(See "Magick in Theory &
>Practice") Aren't *all* concious acts magickal?

No.  I think this is cheap, along the lines of "but isn't a psychological
reality still real?"  Whatever the merits of either of these statements I
usually hear them from magicians who's bunny didn't pop out when it should.


>Of course, if you want to make your own definitions of the terms 
>"magic" and "science" to be mutually
>exclusive then that is your right, but you shouldn't assume that any
>definations are "always" valid (See Tao Teh Ching, Chap. 1) or for that
>matter invalid.   

I hope I have made it clear that I don't think that Corwley's "scientific
illuminism" has anything to do with Frazier's "magic is primitive science."


>The study of alchemy does not necessarily support your point of the mutual
>excluviseness of "magick" and "science" as you seem to have convinced
>yourself.

Alchemy is a spiritual practice with spiritual ends.  So what if modern
chemistry grew out of some of its practices or if they share some
techniques.  Alchemy is not "primitive chemistry" and to describe it so, as
it was done to me in college, is to reduce it to an outmoded technique of
pursuing physical change.

I am not refering in these posts to the wealth of material gathered in
Frazier's 12 vols. but to his interpretation of that material which I find
to be dismissive and insulting.  Give me Andrew Lang  or the Bros. Grimm anyday.
____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________

~From: Tim Maroney 

>>Frazier was a reductionist pig who equated "magic" with "primitive science".

>Poor Frazier. He deserves a break. The science/magic identity was accepted
>by AC (and me :-))and encompassed within his definition of "magick".

You seem to be ignoring Frazer's developmental hypothesis. As I already 
noted, his model is predicated on the idea that the "savage" human is 
basically stupid: "haziness is the characteristic of the mental state of 
the savage." Whether science and magic can be equated at all is a 
separate issue; Frazer's view was specifically that magic is a form of 
science as practiced by the dim-witted. You seem to have taken this as a 
compliment somehow. It wasn't. It was a white man's burden kind of idea.

>As only one person has mentioned GB was originally published in 12 vols.

Uh, no. The 12-volume edition was the third. J. Z. Smith's "When the 
Bough Breaks" gives a detailed publication history and goes into the 
issue of the book's progressive expansion in some detail.

>The first ed. was (off the top of my head) like 1902.

Uh, no. It was 1890.

>However, that Frazier was an intellectual pioneer that struck a great blow
>in the development of the new aeon by offering a blow against the
>originality of the symbols of Christianity and at the same time affirming
>the connection of all humanity to a methodology of ordering the world which
>has been corrupted in the West by materialism of the highest degree but
>still remains most obviously in the "myths and superstitions" of cultures
>like China and India, for example, whose continuity has preserved much of
>the ancient gestalt (which I definately believe has universal elements).

That's quite a sentence! You might consider re-examining your view of 
Frazer's originality given that Dupuis had already expressed the idea 
that Christ was an example of a dying and rising vegetative god a century 
before Frazer. Again the best source on this is Smith's "Drudgery Divine".

And a note to all: "Frazier" is a TV show. The author of "The Golden 
Bough" was James Frazer.

____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________
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