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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Types of Magick and Gods (was Re: Is all magick the same?)
Date: 18 Jun 1997 15:47:30 -0700

49970618 aa2 Hail Satan!

"Draco-Morr" :
#...there is only two true types of magick, with different uses for them.

then let's begin by looking at what makes a TYPE.


#The first is Priest Magick.  This is were you pray, sacrifice, or such,
#to a diety and ask them for power.  This is the most basic form of Magick,
#which most people do everyday.

so you are classifying a type by POWER SOURCE here.  practical process
is to what you would attend when dividing up magick into categories.  fine.  
you have said that prayer (we may infer what this includes) and sacrifice 
(obvious) in relation to a divinity for the procurement of power are
essential to Priestly Magick (really 'theurgy').  you don't say whether
the power is then available for the use of mage (per 'Clerics' in ADnD)
or if the effects called upon by the priest merely manifest (miracles).
  

#The Second is Elemental Magick.  This is the power that derives from the
#user and the basic elements.  This is the magick which is more related to
#magicians.

here you display a possible cosmological bias in that you distinguish a
divinity from 'the user' (presumably the mage) such that there appears
to be no overlap or coincidence between the two.  this roughly corresponds
to the 'thaumaturgic' approach presented by RPGs 'mage' classifications.

you do not state why the POWER SOURCE is so important that we should use
it to distinguish the type of magick.  assuredly this was and is still a 
very important quality *to the religious* (e.g. the Roman Catholics), who 
may place a great deal of importance on their presumption that their power
comes from their god and that the magical acts of others come from less
authoritative or benevolent entities (often termed 'demons' and the magick 
of competitors characterized as 'black' and/or 'sorcery'; cf. Simon Magus).


meltdarok@aol.com (MeltDaRok):
#The difference is only in the practitioner, it is basically the same. 

what I hear you saying is that the divinity is a component of the mage,
and that the form of magick is identical, it is just the description of

the source of power and the conceptualization after the fact which leads
one to begin distinguishing between the two.


#...magicians ...mostly try by ritual means to get the Deity to influence 
#factors in their environment for their own profit.  

this is true for theurgic or religious mages.  some mages don't bother
with gods (let alone any of the 'the God's) at all.


#Since there is only one thing going on, no matter who or how people seek 
#to influence their environment, it is still the same process that must 
#be used.

can you describe more concisely the elements of this process you see?


whtmagick@aol.com (WhtMagick):
#...there are dozens of different kinds of Magick....

yet you do not tell us how to distinguish them or what qualities would
allow a responsible taxonomy.


#Many if not most Priests in the conventional Religions/churches are
#totally un-trained in Magick, and hence their invoations during a
#mass/comunion are duds. 

I would not consider the various religious masses to be magical acts.
having a god do something for someone is PRAYER (unless the god is
supposed to reside within or be identical to the mage), and this is 
different than a direction of (even a deity's) power to achieve 
intentional ends.
 

#"Religious magick" and/or "Priestly magick" relies on "Faith". A true 
#Magician relies upon his own knowledge and power, the only "Faith" he 
#needs is Faith in Himself. 

with this I agree, the mage must have sufficient faith in hirself in order
to accomplish the task.  in fact I think that this is the most imporant
factor and years of study and practice mostly serve to bolster this faith.
form and style are generally a kind of costumed dressing or symbolical
application which may provide some degree of focus where the mind of the
mage is less than precise in the manipulation of telismatic imagery.


#...most magicians have some sort of religious background (and this can be 
#very helpful), but it isn't necessary. It is for this reason (religious 
#background/egregorie) that it is unwise for a person to renounce what 
#religious training he received as a child (prior to age 6).  

I would agree with the exception of those who feel a true conversion has
taken place.


#Eventually, the Magickal student becomes a "Self-Directed" person and has
#no need at all for the usual (conventional) repressive/predatory religious
#institution or structure (or the parasitic class of "Priests" that prey
#upon the "faithful").

exactly, and this can occur under the direction and guidance of a magical
instructor or as a solitary.

blessed beast!

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva
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