THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.wicca,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick,alt.traditional.witchcraft
From: Fluffwikkun 
Subject: Spellcasting Philosophy, Divination and God-Dynamics
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:14:19 GMT

50040718 viii om 

sri catyananda :
> Serendyn:
>> sri catyananda:
>> 
>>> I mean, if Serendyn thinks that magic does NOT change things, 
>>> why do it, eh?

maintenance of a valuable condition?

>> 
>> On the contrary, I believe that magic very much changes things.
>> What I don't believe in is:
>
> Ah! Here is the semantic burr-clover -- two senses of the 
> word "believe" -- 
> A) give credence to, have faith in, accept as "real" 
> B) support as a statement of personal ethical beliefs. 
> You do believe in magic (its existence, efficacy), but you 
> do not believe it is ethical to commit the following acts: 
>
>> 1) Using magic to attempt to control someone else.

here's random rational argument justifying this position:

	it can't be done. controlling others is forbidden by
	the God, and will be struck down immediately. as the
	God supplies all power for all spells, coersion is
	not possible, so I don't believe in it.

I doubt that Serendyn meant it that way, however. :>


> ...i am all in favour of using magic to attempt to reverse evil to
> the evil-doer or wreak revenge if i believe my case is justified in
> God's eyes. 

thus you have no qualms about making such technology available.

my opinion is do it if it feels good. stop short of physical
violence or direct coersion. if the assault is going to really
get rough go legal and below the belt simultaneous to destroy
them magically. as a pacifist I don't practice such horrific
magic, but I try to learn as much about it as I can (prepared
is assured :>).

> When i do such spell-work, i always ask that it be done "if
> my case be justified," which is how i was taught to word 
> such works. 

have you seen anyone's unjustified case allowed by the God?

>> 2) Using magic when other means are appropriate

theurgic support:
	again, the God won't allow it. all explanations are
	possible to the theurge based on the whimsy of the
	deity-source. as a thaumaturge I would take 2) 
	above as a moral consideration, as sri catyananda has 1).

> ...I do not substitute magic for medical, legal, or social acts 
> that i think may be necessary, but i do not abjure the use of 
> magic when undergoing medical, legal, or social processes. 

sounds similar to 2) above. no conditions originally stipulated.

>> 3) Encouraging someone who is obviously unfamiliar 
>>    with the practice to attempt something that could 
>>    well do more harm than good.
>
> ...the only way to learn magic is to start young and try it. 

some treat magic as a rarefied or precious commodity, others as
a special power allowed by the God to be guarded and minimally
expressed. consider the fictonal mage Ogion in the Earthsea books
and countless Taoist mystics and mages sparing in show, apparently
immensely-powerful but gracefully subtle and without showing off.

this contrasts in appearance with the Grubby Sorcerer (TM) who may
have similar motivations but is described by some academics as 
furtive in movements so as to disguise the magical operation. 
the deception is comparable to the stage magician's repertoire.

> I started around the age of 12 to seriously practice it and most 
> of my friends and students say the same -- they began working with 
> magic and/or petition prayers before entering high school. 

not me. I didn't even hear about it or read about it until I got
into late High School (until then only Scholastic Books on folktales
and spooky coincidences can I recall at all related). then I really 
began to explore the world. having been sheltered from many of the 
world's caustics (including religion), I found them immensely 
interesting and their influences changed my life and surroundings 
as I studied them (some might say that they led to a disruption 
and disintegration of many of my societal connections/structures 
and the establishment of novel ones which were less durable in 
their place).

> Those who come to the discipline later are like folks who walk 
> to take up figure skating or tennis late in life -- they can 
> learn, but they have missed the important formative-years 
> experiences of those who started young. 

undoubtedly true.

> Love spells are among the most common "starter spells" 
> practiced by young people, in my experience. 

do you recommend any particular kinds of spells, as compared
with what young people *commonly* practice? i.e. from your 
experience as a spellcaster from a young age, are there better 
spells to learn earlier (like building-blocks to later spellwork)?

> ...the original poster ...wanted a spell
> to help him see how the young lady felt....

sounding. one could ask one's spirits via a spirit board 
(the Parker Bro's Ya-Ya Board even has 'Yes' and 'No' on it ;>). 

in addition to direct communications, or in their place?
Serendyn seems to have presumed in their place, and maybe
they are correct. but what if they are not? what if there
was some reason to suspect she may be concealing her 
feelings and the spell was to derive the truth? 
I don't know either of these folks, so couldn't say. :>

> ...He wanted a spell of divination -- a spell to be used 
> as a form of sooth-saying without influencing the outcome 
> of non-magical social events. 

is that possible, or is magic like some kind of weird
psychics parallel? that one can't observe something 
without somehow affecting or determining it in some way?

> Such spells are fairly common. The use of pendulums 
> and auto-kinesthesia ....   ... read "signs" from the 
> carbon smudges (or or lack thereof) in the glass
> that holds one of those typical novena-sized glass 
> encased candles. The candle itself may be burned to 
> produce a magical effect or outcome, but the 
> divination is a separate spell, independent of that, 
> and functions through "reading" the candle-glass. 

a supplemental augury to the rite. compare religious
operations of great societal import. the personal
import of the circumstance emphasizes attunement.

>> It seems, to me, that this young person could use 
>> a bit more confidence, and not so much looking into 
>> a candle flame to find his way in the world.  

psychic readings in usenet!! Mademoiselle Serendyn Tells All! :>

> If someone asks you directions to the nearest pub, 
> do you say, "Young man, i think you could use a good 
> job and less hanging about in pubs!" --? 

you do if your God doesn't want people messing around 
haphazardly with magicK, or if it is dangerous to go
fiddling with the Controls to the Universe without
some kind of License (degree, etc., you know). 
some theurges have a responsibility to guard and
protect the innocent from the powers which the God
makes manifest. how can we gainsay their duties?

>> I am far from thinking that magic is of no value, 
>> but I do feel it is not appropriate in all cases, 
>> particularly when a more direct method would serve
>> better to help someone along.

thank you Mademoiselle Serendyn. let's see if your
advice turns out to apply to the person who posted. :>
I think it might be fun to catalogue all the various
cautions which may be given about spellcasting, such
as many you have outlined in your concerns (what you
say that you don't believe in -- keen).

> The reason i responded with a spell was because 
> NO ONE ELSE HAD. 

LOL typical. I've done that a few times too. as we
continue it there will be less noise from those who
matter in the wake of legitimate questions. 

> I found that sad, in alt.magick of all places.

you're one of the few, the proud, the spellcasting. ;>
and I love ya for it. some of us will post spells.
that's what makes alt.magick the Unpredictable Zone.

> ...why they felt it so wrong or inappropriate to use 
> a spell of divination such as he had asked for. 

the God may not want them to do that. it may drive them
to inform others of the perils of using the Power Tools.

> He wasn't asking for a spell to force his friend to 
> love him against her will, you know -- just to find 
> out if she cares for him at all. 

still, it might be dangerous. consider where this might
intersect into Euro, especially British magical culture.
you're gonna get English-typers that know that the whole
of the crafting of spells is beset by briars, whether on
account of it being ultimately the Work of the Devil
(which I maintain that it *is*), or that if it isn't done
just right with the right training it is liable to yield
a *backfire* (devastating as all get out, some say -- the
magic might best be kept indoors, amongst those with the
right badges, performed at the proper times, etc.). 

> ...some of the most charming, non-invasive, and 
> delightful forms of folk magic in the world....

thank you for the techniques you shared. they were great. :*
many divinatory devices may be used for it also, such as
Tarot decks (what, 2Cups vs any of a number of competing
Courts, or serious faults present) and Cartomancy decks
(they're are verily *constructed* for this purpose, check
out that Etteilla!!!!).

Yijing seems less visually and more mathematically-oriented
perhaps with a binary value that would suit for a simple
"Does she or doesn't she love me?" query as presented.

Fluffwikkun, Witch Survivor of Kaoz Kuvin'