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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.ethics,alt.magick.pagan,alt.lucky.w,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic
From: blackman99 
Subject: Spellcasting Analysis, Expectations, and Ethics
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:41:02 GMT

50040309 vii om

:
# You are honestly looking to break someone's spirit for your own gain? 

it's not an unheard-of spell-aim.

here's what they said, which you neglected to quote:
Orig-From: Tony: Spells?
Orig-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:53
#
#> Do Spells realy work?  I have been trying my own Method of getting a certain
#> person to fall for me either in Lust or Love, and nothing is happening?  I
#> guess the rules in not interfering with someones will is pretty Strong.  Can
#> someone's will be Broken?  Are my Spells not Strong Enough?  Is there a
#> Spell Caster out there who can help or even perform the Spell for me to get
#> instant results? Thanks

to take each of these queries in turn...

	do spells really work?

		there are many convinced of their efficacy and a goodly	
		number report to me the effectiveness of certain types
		of spells over others, as if they're trying variations
		and refining their methods. the variability of skills
		in spellcrafting, situations in application, and methods
		from traditional and solitary practice make evaluating
		these spiritual levers somewhat difficult outside of
		some kind of clinical trial which few seek to undertake
		and those who do might be dismissed as insufficiently
		developed in what it takes to bring a spell to success.

		whether the precise components, formulae, and timing
		are said to be necessary seems in part to depend upon
		the cosmology supported by the arguer. some maintain
		that the whole universe is infused with power waiting
		for us to utilize it to our benefit, often as part of
		a theurgical relation in which the Creator God has 
		it set up this way ("The Doctrine of Signatures") 
		for human beings to use and direct as we like. for
		more on this kind of mentality, check out the intro
		to the grimoire called "The Black Pullet", which has
		the general notion of how the God made it all for us.

		others contend that the "stuff" doesn't much matter
		as long as we are somehow able to 'use the magic'
		or 'direct our will' and manipulate the cosmos to
		our ends. usually the components of the spellcraft
		are by such individuals considered placeholders or
		symbols which might be dispensed once one's skills
		have sufficiently developed to allow it.
 
(implied) are there rules for interference with someone's will?

		ethics in magic varies by culture and temporal context,
		usually in association with religious and philosophic
		beliefs about the universe, how and of what it is made.
		the question of *whether there is will at all* is one
		seldom asked in magical philosophy, its self-evidence
		usually enshrining the will to an axiomatic status.

		interference with said will can be the currency or the
		bane of the ethical structure utilized by spellcasters.
		those which integrate magic inherent to ordinary aims
		have few qualms about supplementing physical interests
		with magic, talismans, and reflective divination. those
		who reserve magic for mystical pursuits often have very
		strict criticism of the use of spells to influence the
		will of others and provide rules which typically require
		consent of the target of the spell for its casting to 
		maintain its ethical purity.

		there are, therefore, rules espoused by magicians and
		spellcasters pertaining to best use of magic and how
		to negotiate potentially manipulative spells in life.
		it is very easy to come by such rules (if variable),
		merely by mentioning manipulative spellcasting in public 
		forums. religious by the score will often respond with 
		all manner of objection to the act and will sometimes 
		provide their ruleset for your restraint.

	can someone's will be broken?

		by use of magic, will-breaking usually falls into the
		domain of harmful, coercive, (and by dualists what is
		called 'black') magic. those who talk about such spells
		will more often be found amongst those who have little
		or no ethical qualms, or who feel that they are justified
		or empowered by their god of worship that supports their
		magic (if any). Kaos magicians, Satanists, and those who
		deal in sorcery (witches, sorcerers, warlocks, etc.) 
		are more likely to describe magical efforts to break the
		will or possess or destroy others. that they do attempt
		this indicates their belief in its possibility or at the
		least in walking the daring edge of magical operations.

		in a less visceral or corrosive vein, will-battles are
		described as behind a good number of magical activities,
		from the summoning of spirits (whom some seek to dominate
		and control using applied will) to coercive spells 
		in which it is described as a contest of wills and the 
		so-called 'breaking of another's will' is really just a
		winning out of one individual over another in attempts
		to influence the course of events like arm-wrestling.

(implied) do cast spells vary in strength?

		as above, the results from spells are usually described
		as dependent upon a number of factors, in part based on
		the cosmology of the commentator. whether components,
		magical skills, or the composition of the cosmos (in
		terms of astrology, biorhythms, lunar phases, etc.)
		factor into the strength of a spell, it seems that most
		contend knowledge of some sort, if not skill, is needed.
		for this reason amateur and professional classes of
		spellcasters are identified for purpose of results, if
		not touted by those with interest in providing service.

		strength of spells seem to be evaluated based on emotional
		intensity at the time of the casting, by many evaluations.
		sometimes the particulars of the spell and what happens 
		to them are indicators of the strength or the expectable
		repercussion. the way candles burn, for example, how much
		apparent resistance or difficulty in casting the spell,
		especially for those who are old hands at it, indicates
		something of relative challenge being encountered.

(implied) are there spellcasters for hire for consultation or casting services?

		there are, and they seem to vary across the map of possible
		reliability. people will take money for all kinds of things,
		and sometimes they will provide an appearance for that which
		can be faked. some more responsible spellcasters attempt to
		counteract these problems by doing things like photographing
		spells-in-action, directly involving the interested party 
		by contribution if not participation, and returning used 
		components to the contracting party. consultation is usually
		easily obtained within spellcasting forums like this one or
		those which feature practical discussions of spellcasting. 

(implied) are instant results possible? 

		instant results are more often the promise of those who
		have a distinct interest in concluding a fast exchange of
		money and getting out before contrary appearances might
		be noticed. I have heard of those who claimed very fast
		results, but usually this is not or was not a guarantee.
		my own divinatory activities have sometimes produced what
		might be interpreted as a kind of resonance or (if I was
		to arrogate) cause upon world events in a brief time
		period. determining the active stimulus responsible 
		for results, however, isn't always easy.

# What would you do if someone took your freedom of self away? 

this sounds more like the zombie-making of African disporic religion.
usually the creation of a drone or possessed slave is not the focus of
spellcasting that I can see. some mystics talk about golems, and some
Khaos Mayjuz occasionally describe the creation of servitors or minor
thoughtforms to achieve results limited in time and extent, but these
are not involving the use of another's will to parasitize/control them.

# Anyone who has the knowledge you seek would be a fool to help 
# someone as childish as you. 

it is interesting to me that those who seek to dissuade certain types
of spellcasting often impugn the maturity of those who ask for such
results or formulae. they'll call the requester 'childish', make
references to popular horror films on magic like "The Craft", or
role-playing game or comic book magic, as if these are the ignorant
sources for spells, rather than reflections of traditional magic.

it tells us something about the character of the detractor. if 
they had their own maturity they wouldn't stoop to such insults 
in order to make their points, and would instead explain why they
see so much more clearly into the metaphysics and ethics of magic. 
such is the state of the Philosophy of Magic (most mages don't
have a background study in it, sadly, and thence prefer to wax
ignorantly in embarrassing displays of fundamentalism) despite
some of the contentions from popular magicians of its importance.

# You get what you give and to give something as cruel as taking away 
# someone's choice is wretched. 

this is an interesting perspective. how can we discern when someone's
choice is actually removed, as compared with when choice over some
particular circumstance is influenced by a powerful will (whether in
spellcrafting or directly)? these questions are seldom considered by
those condemning of spellcrafting. it is sufficient to proceed along
the presumption that "removing someone's choice is inexcusable" and
that spells contending for certain results thereby are indefensible.
 
# Instead, why don't you cast a spell to find your true love. 

this is surely a more supported magical activity than attempting 
to make someone love you. the target of the spell is oneself, and
therefore will by definition agree to be the subject of results.

# There is nothing written that says what you want right now is what 
# you need to live and grow as a person. 

a number of those who used magic with whom I've studied indicated
that they found the written word to be *unreliable* as regards the
mysteries and practice of magic, witchcraft, and the "Art". whether
there is something written, therefore, may not be convincing.

# And failing that, why don't you approach this person and tell 
# them how you feel? 

that's their personal business which may prove supplemental to and
extraneous to a discussion about magic which they are pursuing.

# Sometimes it is better to do things yourself.

whether by the thaumaturge or by the natural mage, doing spellwork
*is* doing things for oneself. those including a God underlying
the operations will sometimes speak of the God "helping them to
help themselves", for example, and therefore regard what they are
doing as comparable to engineering: using the available leverages
in causation as they perceive them to effect desired changes.

blackman99