THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.occult.methods,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.witchcraft
From: blackman99 
Subject: Spell Requests and Techniques (Love Spells => Feral Humans!! ;>)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:13:10 GMT

50030920 viii equinox, autumnal; 

# I am beginning to wonder if it just me and why I can't get my love
# spells to work....

tell us more about what you've done and what hasn't worked for you.

# WANTED: Someone to help me screw myself over. I've tried and tried,
# and can't get the hang of it. Help! Previous experience, references
# required. Karmic consequences, excessive drama, life chaos a plus.
# Serious inquiries only.

spells aren't necessarily self-debilitating, nor is contracting for them.

# ...all I see whenever anyone mentions love is close mindedness and 
# judgment placed on those asking the question....

it happens quite a bit, even when the inquiry is from someone who has
done their homework. spells usually generate criticism from theurges
who want spellcasters to bind their will to the gods for purposes of
personal development and ethical restraint.

# ...do we really need to judge? 

ethical and technical assessments of spellcasters seem to conform 
in rough measure to the fundie and/or materialist training that those 
with the judgement have received at the hands of their parents. 
like physical abuse, intellectual subjugation to arrogant cults 
predisposes judgementalism and extremist wackiness and can be passed
down in families and societal structures (workplace, politics, etc.).
so some do seem to need it, but for how long?

# ...she just wants a silver bullet to make her problem go away.... 

the usual spell-request, in other words.

# ...there are a million different spells in print 
# from every conceivable era, system and scale of practice to summon, 
# dismiss, control, release, and manifest love. Why reinvent the 
# wheel? 

do any of them work better than others? the complaint was that the
spells supposedly employed didn't work and the request was for
something more potent. are there gradations of love spell, chains
of command for magical power-sources which allow the theurge to
beef up the voltage, so to speak, of a spell to make it happen?

reinventing the wheel is one thing, but attempting to discern the
difference between a Beginner's (weak) spell and an Advanced (more
powerful) spell is a legitimate inquiry, despite lack of data.

helpful response would include *enhancement techniques/materials*,
like the fact that adding personal concerns (obtained most easily
and effectively when *intimate with the spell target*) to the spell
will beef up its power, using photographs or other linking objects
can assist the direction of the spell, and when to cut and clear.

# ...there are a thousand love spells to be done with it, from 
# aboriginal shamanism to Santeria to the Graeco-Roman magical 
# papyri... why type them in all over again here? 

no need. better to set up a "Spells" folder on your site with
a links section and pile in a batch of links where spell caches 
are kept and accumulated. every day or two someone emails 
me and asks for a spell to do something. I usually send them 
a batch of URLs for their investigation that I've had handy,
and I try to be rather unbiased in what I include:

# want spells? try the following:
#
# ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/magick/Rituals/
# ftp://nic.funet.fi/pub/doc/religion/occult/misc/
# http://www.angelfire.com/wa/ThunderRoad/grimoire.html
# http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/ref.html
# http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.html
# http://www.mojomoon.net/spelarch.html
# http://www.witchs-brew.com/shadows/spells/index.html
# 
# http://www.luckymojo.com/faqs.html
#
#
# or try the following usenet newsgroups:
# news:alt.magick
# news:alt.magick.tyagi
# news:alt.magick.chaos
# news:alt.occult.methods
# news:alt.pagan.magick
# news:alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic
# news:alt.religion.wicca
# news:alt.witchcraft
#
# or the following Yahoogroups:
# http://groups.yahoo.com/group/occultism
# http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tarotl
# http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thelema93-l

and in this group a single URL (directing the interested to 
a list of links to spell-sites) would probably suffice.
if you notice any of the above no longer exist, let me know.
if you'd like me to add a URL send it my way privately or
post it in response to this msg.

# If someone is not willing to make an effort to do their own research 
# and spellwork, what does that say about 1) how important they really 
# think their problem is 

they don't want to become a spellcrafter, they want to get their
personal problems solved. when we go to a specialist we should
not be expected to learn the specialist's art due to our interest.
in the case of magic and spells, usually this attitude derives from
biased cultural judgement as to what magic is *for* and who should
be doing it and why. this varies. magical services are *sold*.

# and 2) how much value they place on the ability of magical 
# workings to change their circumstances?

involvement with those whose interest is in determining 
and discussing the nature of magical activities may be an 
indicator that a person places some good bit of value on
the likelihood magic might be used to solve problems. the
inquiry concerning refinement of success is sometimes very
embarrassing to magicians because we are not scientists and
don't usually bother to test methods for their efficiency.

add to this that a large number of magicians believe that the
goods and techniques being used are *ineffectual except as
recipients of magical power or props to convince the mage
that the will might be imployed in this manner* and you've
not only got a recipe for sarcastic dissuasion of spells
and spellcasting, but grounds for dismissing the skeptical.

# ...Just don't expect someone else to wave a magic wand 
# and solve all your problems for you.

for the right price? why not? this is unrealistic. if they
don't offer a money-back guarantee, don't go to them. if
they can't demonstrate some measure of success in previous
works, then they probably aren't worth your time. ritual
magic is as much for hire as gunslinging, you just have 
to know the right people.

# try a generalistic spell....... a generic one with no 
# particular person in mind.

this can be both *less* effective and less likely to work.
granted that you know a particular person you can find ways
to connect the spell to them, such as by obtaining something
personal of theirs to add to the spell. "generic person" is
not available to such manipulation.

# but be careful............. if you do a spell......... 
# end it with and harm ye none....

beware of magical advice that comes with religious dogma.

# ...the main problem with folks looking for "the pill" is they are 
# either afraid of research and uncovering stuff they do not want to ....

the problem is unveiling weak and ineffectual magicians/witches.

# anecdotes about spells and rites backfiring due to unclear thinking 

is that why these anecdotes get told? I doubt it.
I think it comes from a desire to redirect attention.

# OR worse yet they don't know where to go and research so they 
# just ASK anyone.

it's one of the best ways to conduct initial research. eventually 
someone who knows will turn them onto real information rather 
than shining them on and manipulating them with promise of power.

# That's the worst part since if they latch onto a "newbie-leading-
# the-newbie" they're bound to get into some sort of trouble. >:)

that's a different problem: the problem of arrogant magicians who make
students into thralls in order to get access to unusual technology.
if there weren't traditions of charlatans doing this then a standard
could be developed which would eshew that kind of relationship and 
no newbies would have to watch out for the problem you've mentioned.

# ...I am far from expert at any given thing and feel my own 
# ignorance as a palpable weight....

knowledge concerning the occult is generated as far as there are
mages, witches, sorcerers, etc., willing to imagine things that
we are doing and write them down. assimilating all knowledge sets
is an impossible task, and so discerning which databits are more
important to us than others will be the relevant activity of the
newbie guided by rationality and wisdom.

# ...the theoretical ground you-all may share in common and take 
# for granted is invisible to some of us,

projecting some vaunted theoretic / doctrine which all masters
or specialists share is part of the confidence game of occultism.
there *isn't* such a shared knowledge-set, though there are
traditions of people who think alike, partially due to training.

# and as for me, I'm not sure how to get past this stage. 

being overwhelmed by data and unsure how it might be applied
and/or what it might mean to you and others? as far as I can
tell, this never stops (because of the exciting novelties
that magicians are wont to create). it isn't a stage, it's
more of an attitude given off by those of us who want to 
appear as if we 'have it all handled and understood'.

sometimes this manifests as dogmatism and certitude, as when
a magician takes their knowledge for the truth, and sometimes
it results in exploded knowledge categories that the honest
admit can no longer be maintained in the face of overwhelming
contrary evidence.

if you ever 'get past this stage' it'll mean effectively that
you'll be treading water amidst a bunch of information which
has dubious or at least uncertain value.

# It's understandable that people would
# rather talk to those they find interesting, i.e. those who
# know what they're talking about, and so don't have time
# to spend with folks who've gotten stuck. 

I don't find this to be true by and large. talking about the
specialized forms of magic doesn't happen much except within
close-knit communities of initiation and secrecy. in public
and not-so-public forums the kind of wink-and-nod cleverness
that passes for communication and sleighting of newbies is
about all that gets said pertaining to the details of some
types of magic (e.g. spells), and only the intrepid get 
real information exchange to occur despite the noise. that's
why more posts appear in speculative and theory-related chat
threads than practical posts in newsgroups like 

		news:alt.occult.methods 
or 		news:alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic

# How do people like me get past this so that we can 
# participate in communities with people like you? 

depends on what you are like. if you are a joiner, work well
in groups where leaders want you to conform, etc., then you
might want to involve yourself locally in some sort of cult
or school and suck from the teat of traditionalists. there
are even some of these online, offering limited information.

if you want to connect with solitaries like you through the 
medium of the internet, then ignore the personal flames,
ask lots of questions, and when people complain, killfile
them or filter them out of your perception using technology.

those who have the information you want and are interested
in discussing it will reply with cogence and clarity. those
who don't either won't respond or will give you garbage 
that you're better off ignoring.

one of the facets of occultism is 'being in-with-the-in-crowd'
and this translates into initiation rituals in exchange for
restrictive oaths and promises not to reveal things. I don't
recommend the self-restrictive activities, personally, but
some say they've benefitted thereby, and they have notions
of personal "evolvement" as they self-constrain up the
various social ladders and learn guarded information.

# Were you-all ever at this stage, 

I've been in that place many times, yes, and still am upon
occasion. I don't think it really can be avoided, due to
the pockets of specialization that people wish to glorify.

# and if so, what did you do? 
# Just keep plugging away at the texts I can understand 

the usual line is "do the work yourself!" and by this the
critical occultist usually means "shut up and let me talk
instead!" ;> or "quit drawing attention to yourself with 
noise and *do* something already!"

what I do in response to feeling overwhelmed with data I 
can not understand in a topic I wish to study is:

	a) take notes; identify key terms that interest
           me and seem to be central to an understanding
           of the topic of my study; 

	b) engage practical activities, try things;
           those criticisms of strict speculation are
           based on something important: building up
           an experiential base from which to compare
           and contrast the data you make;

	c) do supplemental research; it is true that
           most don't have the interest or the
           capacity to read up on material; doing
           this will give me the leg up even on
           most of those who are talking about the
           topics of my interests (because by and
           large the internet is filled with fakes);

	d) study philosophy and journalism; learn 
           what makes good questions, what the basic
           knowledge axioms are for general occultism
           (there are *several* paradigms, conflicting!),
           and generate substance by asking pertinent
           and revealing questions which underscore the
           differences of opinion on any particular
           topical focus; 

	e) ask good questions, whether or not they are
           addressed in meaningful ways; represent the
           alternative perspective to know-it-alls; be
           the Devil's Advocate; flush out the real
           dogma and superstition that supports the
           people I'm talking with;

	f) assume a variety of positions within the
           topic area of my study and see if I can 
           generate meaningful answers that some others 
           who have been practicing it a while can 
           agree with and support; draw on my own
           experience in reflection to come up with
           novel and insightful commentary on issues
           that are central to theory and practice;

	g) be willing to be corrected, shown to be
           wrong, in error, misunderstanding, and
           generally avoid presumption of authority;
           let others assume authoritative positions
           until and unless I want to try my hand at
           the top of the proverbial Knowledge Hill;

	h) ignore the trolls, naysayers, handwringing
           finger-waggers, religious dogmatists, and
           know-nothing charlatans; once these have
           identified themselves by their idiocy or
           their response to your clear expression,
           pay them no more attention as they shall
           only alienate everyone of importance with
           whom one would like to exchange information.

	i) take the concerned private unless you have
           vows to reveal and share information; then
           you'll be assured not to draw conversation
           from the trolls and cynics.

# and 
# irritate the rest of you only when I finally can't resist?

the irritable will become irritated. this demonstrates
their spiritual immaturity and lack of patience in the
face of newbies and those with interest in exploring
the basics of any subject (they'll claim foolishly:
"we already *know* those things!!!"). let the moderator
or someone else worry about whether you're asking the
wrong type or level of questions. if these things are
not spelled out in the intro to the forum, then you'll
just be helping all other newbies by posing these very
important and basic questions (for which there are
liable to be very many different possible answers).
in short, the will of the cosmos will be with you.

# ...we don't have a problem with someone due to lack of 
# knowledge and experience. 

with this much I agree.

# The problem rests with dabblers who pass through looking 
# for E-Z Spelz to get their boy/girlfriend back, or 
# something else that's been asked about a zillion times 
# before. ;) ...

if a question comes up more than once, that doesn't mean
that the person asking it is foolish, it means that it
is a popular line of inquiry about the topic and deserves
to be included in some kind of Frequently Asked Questions
file that could be posted in the Files section of the
Yahoogroup in question. Yahoogroups isn't the best place
for visibility of answers to oft-asked questions.

# That's VERY different from a neophyte (novice) who is 
# obviously sincere in their studies and practice. 

whether spells have any place in study and practice 
of the neophyte seems an important issue. some traditions
of ritual magic eshew spells for ceremonies and initiations.
some spellcrafters use ritual in their techniques. is the
term 'neophyte' specific to ceremonialists that dislike
spellcrafting and prefer initiations and Enochian Magickkkk?

Jane Smyth :
# ...there are those instances when someone genuinely 
# needs help and let's face it considering how the 
# whole 'love' thing is viewed not just here but on 
# pretty much every magical list I've seen, I can 
# understand someone not wanting to tell all the 
# details of what's going on. 

because of 

	* the fickleness of the spell-advocator;

	* the materials used in spellcrafting (menstrual blood,
           urine, underwear, hair, nails, oil, candles, 
           poppets, cord, lodestones, magnetic sand, 
           charms, amulets, powders, incenses, 
           herbs galore, maybe even potions!);

	* the activities required to achieve the spell 
           (violation of some cultural norm to which 
           we've developed a fondness for as in 
           coercive magic, deception, sneakiness);
           
	* the revelation of secret formulae to change reality;

	* the stark contradiction against some Path?

what is it about love that clams people up? the interpersonal
dynamics? its relation to sexuality and the conficts posed 
by discussion or revelation about it within public forums?
there are many things to choose from here. :>

# I myself don't tell much of why I'm evoking a certain 
# spirit for fear of being bashed 

generally you might want to keep a Magical Record, 
regardless of its accessibility to insensitive others.
at some point being bashed might not concern you.
being able to take it might become a mark of your
integrity, strength, and general, equipoise.

# I'm always happy to tell of my experiences with 
# evocation b/cause something I say or do might be 
# of help to someone else somehow and I look forward 
# to hearing others' experience too for the hope of 
# gleaning knowlege in the same way....

rituals are experiments as well as operations.
collaborating exhibits a certain amount of trust,
and may include reflections during magical feats. 

ephemeral or transparent results (which only track
to the subject, which are only briefly or partially
apparent to me senses, etc.) will be the more 
difficult technology to ascertain of its value. the
concrete results of love spells or money spells are
a better crucible for discernment for magical effects 
than communication with extraordinary spirits or the
evolvement to a fabulous new spiritual condition.

blackman99
           luckymojo.com@nagasiva

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Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.witchcraft
Subject: Re: Spell Requests and Techniques (Love Spells => Feral Humans!! ;>)
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50030924 viii om equinox fall

#># ...she just wants a silver bullet to make her 
#># problem go away....
 
blackman99:
#> the usual spell-request, in other words.

sri catyananda :
# I think i can say that i deal with more people seeking
# spells on a daily basis than either of you do -- and i 
# don't think that the "usual spell-request" is for a 
# "silver bullet" 

in general, agreed.

my comment was that the way that *this* person 
seemed to characterize the usual spell request *is* 
as "a silver bullet to make their problems go away".

their prioritization and anti-spell attitude was such
as to over-emphasize the spellcaster's abdication 
of responsibility for their circumstance and results
from ordinary activities and a hope for miracles. see 
below.

# -- the usual request i see is for advice in choosing
# a spell to commit to from the many to be found online 
# and in books. 

or to find someone else to cast one for them because they
feel beset or constrained and insufficiently powerful. I
note, for example, that some have faith in the power or
reliability of materials from a source that they trust
when in fact comparable stuff can be obtained very near
to them (e.g. oregano, candles, or even water which may
be blessed by the magician so as to make it Holy Water).

#># ...there are a million different spells in print
#># from every conceivable era, system and scale of practice to summon,
#># dismiss, control, release, and manifest love. Why reinvent the
#># wheel?
#> 
#> do any of them work better than others? the complaint was that the
#> spells supposedly employed didn't work and the request was for
#> something more potent. 
#
# And that query is meaningless without knowing what the
# person tried. 

indeed, this was the criticism a number of people in the 
ritual-magic Yahoogroup mentioned, combined with observations 
on their previous posting behaviour that made it seem that
they were doing little more than stirring up trouble.

# ...they should have been using magic on small matters 
# successfully for a few years before they attempt 
# something desperate. 

integrating spellcasting into ordinary life as a consistent
practice is something that some magicians find objectionable.
it appears that cultural predispositions gear some of this.
I've been subject to it myself, and am only gradually able
to leave this behind to a degree (wanting in some measure
to target particular rites, spells, or magical acts and
maximize efficiency of my time and energies).

#> magical services are *sold*.
#
# Basically TIME and LABOUR are sold. 

plus practical materials are sometimes provided to clients
to employ as magical tools in their local vicinity for
protection, or other reasons.
  
#># ...Just don't expect someone else to wave a magic wand
#># and solve all your problems for you.
#> 
#> for the right price? why not? this is unrealistic. 
#
# I agree. 

here's the part I was talking about above. it is a 
perspective on the cosmos that magic is only for
certain things and that using spells for practical
results is "waving a wand" or "shooting a silver 
bullet to solve their problems", when in fact what
the critic is saying is that magic can (or more
often *should*) not be used to address practical,
ordinary, problems, and should instead be reserved 
for other (sometimes 'higher') aims instead. 

it so happens that I have been educated about magic
in such an atmosphere and have this predisposition
myself, and so I can completely understand this
(cultural) bias, though I cannot confirm that 
it is founded on anything more than a cultural 
bias, even while I study what is identified as 
'Low Magic' and erode this bias somewhat.

#> if they don't offer a money-back guarantee, 
#> don't go to them.
#
# Unless you don't require a money-back guarantee 
# from every vendor your use -- after all, you won't 
# get a money-back guarantee from your dentist or 
# lawyer either!

I was speaking to the skeptic who seemed to be saying
that magic-to-solve-ordinary-problems-is-a-waste. if
they believe this, then linking their contracts with
a money-back guarantee would ensure no risk at all. ;>

blackman99