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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.order,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan.magick,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Re: RCatholicism and Magic(k) (Was trash ..idiots. Catholic Magic Oxymoron)
Date: 24 Apr 1996 19:05:07 -0700

kaliyuga
49960424

kchap@ripco.com (Dryada) and I continue discussion (HUGE tracts omitted):
|>|>Roman Catholicism eshews magic of all sorts.  It categorizes as 'magic' 
|>|>or more often 'sorcery' a great many occult arts and sciences and tends
|>|>to use these labels in an attempt to discredit rival spiritual paths.

|>|>It appears that the term 'magic' was from the beginning, like 'pagan',
|>|>an indicator of otherness and rivalry, the religious practices of the
|>|>alien culture, etc. (Persian 'magi' becoming the stereotype of these 
|>|>rival shaman/priest-magicians).  ....

|>|>[Roman] Catholicism ...does not in the least contain magic, since magic 
|>|>is a spiritual practice which the Church does not control.  If it were 
|>|>*found* to contain magic, you can be sure that the magic would quickly 
|>|>be controlled or exorcised and the perpetrators subject to repetence 
|>|>or excommunication. ;>

|You are correct that Roman Catholicism does not sanction the use of
|the word "magick" or "magic" to refer to any of its practices.  I
|double-checked this with a personal source.

Thank you for concording here.  Now I may proceed.  Then we can take the
various explanation of what *does* happen within the Mass (by outsiders)
that is described as 'magic' and see if the Church agrees that the
*process* is being described correctly and, more importantly to me,
whether it is part of the Church's overall purpose to wipe out magical
practices (as is the case for Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and many
other conservative JCI).

Let them not pass unchallenged.


|>Inasfar as 'magick' means a transubstantiation of the wafer and wine
|>into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Our Lord I'm afraid I don't
|>have any evidence for this.  Quite alot to the contrary, actually.

|What would YOU call it?  Does it matter what THEY call it, other
|than the top of the hierarchy engages in bizarre mental gymnastics 
|to avoid the equation that "miracles" = "magick"?

I would call the transubstantiation of the wafer to flesh and wine to
blood a miracle as understood by the Roman Catholic, a magical act
supposing its ontological truth without the theology, and a social
rite of symbolic community-building as understood by the materialist.


|>|...many priests, nuns, and lay practitioners are, in fact, in touch 
|>|with the "magick," calling it something else many times to avoid the 
|>|cognitive dissonance created by DOING something that is "officially" 
|>|thought poorly of.  

|It varies, and it depends upon the sub-group as well as the 
|individual.  If my memory serves correctly, the Benedictines 
|would not be the place to look for such "unique" individuals...

This is true as I know it, and my experience has yielded more liberal-
mindedness among the Jesuits than the Benedictines (not that I have an
extensive track-record with either).


|>|...I have no qualms about your trashing of official Roman 
|>|Catholic doctrine and the heads of the hierarchy, 

|That was one thing I was trying to ascertain: whether it was 
|RC doctrine.

|OK, so you can rest assured it is not.

So far you have supported what I said, not undermined it.


|>|the sweeping nature of your statements might be taken as a 
|>|personal attack even by a lay Catholic mystic, and a denial 
|>|of their very real experience.  

|>I'm sure their Pope says much worse.  

|And that makes it any better?

Better?  No, but if my aim is the discernment of the mind of the pinnacle
of the Roman Catholic Religion (as I understand it he has tremendous power
to influence the actions and minds of his inferiors).  As I understand it
within the Church he is considered a 'special individual', receiving a very
special relationship with Christ and God.  Detemining his expressions about
the occult arts and sciences would therefore go a long way in coming to say
what is 'good (Roman) Catholic religion' and what is not.

This in turn will tell us whether any who identify as 'RC Mage' is ipso
facto at odds with her own church.  I'd like to make this clear if so,
and keep the pressure on the Church to ease up on its moralism and 
ill-founded statements about other religious practices and thoughts.

Lately the record has been good as I've seen it, but I'm not a Pope-hawk.
I was hopeing to snag someone who is. ;>


|...I'll bet you'll find that they resolve their conflict with 
|the "official doctrine" by deciding the "Church" is more than
|the sum of the Pope and the top Bishops.

Actually so far I've heard from former RCatholics and continuing
members of said church that the Pope pretty much calls the shots.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide (I can pull
out the explanation I received of RC sociodynamics if you're 
really interested; just got another one from Peggy, bless her
sweet heart).


|No, that's the problem, and why you should try to stop deciding how Catholics 
|will be without experiencing the individual.  

Sometimes you don't know me very well.  My point isn't to say that I'll
interact with so-labelled 'Roman Catholics' as a monolith, but that in
that their commonalities (and these can be discerned!) will make me very
aware of their relative threat to the occult arts and sciences.


|The Pope can't control everyone, and I'll bet it bugs him and his minions 
|bigtime.  

They do pretty good from within their churches.
Then again, some of the Jesuits appear to be rather eclectic.

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva