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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.christnet.demonology
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Religion and Magick (was something else)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:30:36 GMT

om 50011023 VI! very kaotik! [extremely! the post never made it through the first time! trying again!]! 

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
>>>>>...I have stated on numerous occasions that we consider God
>>>>>to be ultimately ineffable and that we choose to "believe" in aspects
>>>>>of mythology that we consider "useful" in the course of our spiritual
>>>>>activities and the personal quest for enlightenment. 

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
> ...I'm not promoting "my religion"....
> ...I teach magick on the news group....

how would you distinguish or compare these two in *general*: 
religion, and magick?

>...educating you ...

:>

>       There is a difference, but at the level most people are aware
>of, the concepts are much the same. Watch *Dark Mirror of Magick*
>again and pay close attention when Wayne and I discuss "Belief" and
>"Bakti yoga". It's all there if you can grok it. *******

usually 'bhakti', I think. when I watch it next I hope I see what you mean.

>>...you are quite open about your religious practices in worship of 
>>Ba'al and Astarte, but how you reconcile this with an ineffable "God" 
>>and these Goetic demons actually intrigues me.

>Tibetan tantric Buddhism? Then you might understand it.

a tantric re-contextualization of demons Goetic as some kind of kind
of tantric demons instead, or a new breed of demonic spirits, barely
touched even by those with the proper method?

>>	* do you believe what you write about your theology?
>>	  that is, that your objectives include "shar[ing] power
>>	  with the Archangels, command[ing] the demons and
>>	  walk[ing] with Gods"? do you deny that you are
>>	  promoting these activities?
>>
>>	    -- "The Book of Solomon's Magick", Poke Runyon, p. 8.
>>	  ---------------------------------------------------------
>This is badly misquoted out of context. 


is it? here, I'll provide an exact quote and plenty of context

	The magical vision is primarily an ecstatic and transformative
	experience that may be enhanced by a group performance but is
	essentially *subjective* in its effects. In other words, this
	method of magick produces a controllable dreamstate wherein the
	practitioner summons the spirits to visible appearance and
	communications with them. No other system of magick, not the
	Golden Dawn, Tibetan Tantra, Voodoo or Wicca offers such an
	authentic, spontaneous experience. Only Solomon's Magick
	fulfills the whispered promise of the old grimoires. The Master
	or Mistress of this Art shares power with the Archangels,
	commands the demons and walks with the Gods.

	If this is your desire read on and enter the Treasure Cave
	of the Arabian Nights where the mighty Jinn of Old King Solomon
	are at your command. The first challenge on your quest will be
	to roll a huge stone away from the entrance to your own
	Magical Cavern. That stone has been built up over a lifetime
	of thousands of verbalized encrustations such as, *"It's just
	your imagination!"*

>There is no point in even trying to answer it. 

no? aw, too bad.

>You must learn not to do this. 

must I?? ok. teach me. I learn best with positive expressions and
honest sincere interactions. I'm coming to this discussion without
ulterior motives and hope to learn something about your magical
activities, since you would like to discuss them and as they have
resonance with my own. :> hi! sorry if I put my foot in my mouth.

>It is very offensive.

is it? sorry. I didn't intend it that way. never saw how it could
be taken as offensive. I sometimes step into these kinds of
interactions because I'm more solitary than many others. all the
same, if I don't understand the exact offense, I'm liable to give
it again unless it is clearly explained to me (perhaps privately).

I can understand how your religion is not being promoted in your 
discussion, teaching, and promoting of your material (because your 
religion is the worship of Astarte and Ba'al, whereas though there 
may be some overlap as when you interact with Astarte and Ba'al as 
god and goddess in an ostensible Goetic evocation, your worship 
itself is done in a different way). if I'm mistaken please let me know.

what still intrigues me is how you think all the various parts get 
on with one another, whether you construct a kind of mythological 
timeline, and if so what this all looks like. I like mandalas. :>

>>	* do you believe that "Divine Provenance has assigned
>>	  you" "the portion of the Sacred Art" "to expound"
>>	  and that "no one can teach [your students] more about"
>>	  "the power to summon the spirits to visible appearance"
>>	  than you?
>>
>>	    -- "The Book of Solomon's Magick", Poke Runyon, p. 4.
>>	  ---------------------------------------------------------
>...Yes, I do---because that's what came to pass. So what?

because that says something about your ground-level metaphysics,
that you believe in 'Divine Provenance', what it is and may do,
and how you see yourself with respect to the rest of the cosmos.

more of my feeble attempts to recontextualize Poke's text:
>>	* do you maintain that you are interested in creating
>>	  an elite system of lodges and churches practicing what
>>          you contrast with other essentially mystical and
>>	  religious alternatives ("Golden Dawn, Tibetan Tantra,
>>	  Voodoo, or Wicca") as more "authentic, spontaneous
>>	  experience"), and that your magick may "open the doors
>>	  for [your students]" to "excel in any of the creative
>>	  arts ... or become a spiritual leader"?
>>
>>	    -- "The Book of Solomon's Magick", Poke Runyon, p. 8.
>>	  ---------------------------------------------------------

>...Here again you have garbled up this and quoted it out of
>context to such a degree that it no longer represents my writing at
>all. 

did I? ok, let's get some more context:

	...Solomon's Magick is not a get-rich-quick scheme but it
	will jump-start and supercharge your creative processes.
	If you are willing to seriously study the books I've
	recommended, in a few years you will have acquired an
	education comparalbe to a liberal arts degree from a
	university. You may be inspired to undertake formal studies
	in psychology, anthropology, physics, genetics or biochemistry.
	You may excel in any of the creative arts ... or become a
	spiritual leader. Magick will open these doors for you and show
	you the way. This is the real power and promise of King
	Solomon's Art -- for Solomon, as you recall, was mainly noted
	for his wisdom. Although this type of Magick is a Royal Art it
	is not restricted to the elite; *Solomon's Magick creates the
	elite!*

I think most of my points were made in the direct quote, but I'd
be interested to hear a rebuttal and a discussion moving more to
general consideration of religion and magic and how these interact.

you know, I was referring to page 6 also:

	You will need to master self-hypnosis and develop the ability
	of fixed concentration (the yoga of the tratakam). Once you
	have properly trained yourself, you will be able to perform one
	of these Grand Operations of Solomon's Magick in less than an
	hour's time by yourself or with friends who have undergone the
	same training. You will be able to instruct others and start
	your own Lodge of Magicians -- or remain a solitary master or
	master or mistress of this ancient art.

but this brings to negative the response to my question about the
promotion of lodges. enabling initiation of lodge systems is more 
your style, which makes sense. sorry if I misconstrued you.
 
>>	* do you believe that "High Magick does not (or should
>>	  not) grant the power to dominate and/or exploit others"
>>	  and that "Magick should not be thought of as a push-
>>	  button technology that directs impersonal energies"
>>	  or "as a personal empowerment system to help one climb
>>	  a corporate ladder and dazzle the opposite sex"? do
>>	  you in fact believe the opposite, that it "should
>>	  actually achieve the opposite effect by leading you
>>	  to *what [your students] really need* [your emph.] 
>>	  rather than giving [your students] *what [they] think 
>>	  [they] want* [your emph.]?
>>
>>	    -- "The Book of Solomon's Magick", Poke Runyon, pp. 6-7.
>>	  -----------------------------------------------------------
>...I don't use the term "my students". 

very true, which is why it was in brackets (to show that it was my
text). here, I'll provide the entirety:

	High Magick does not (or should not) grant the power to dominate
	and/or exploit others. In spite of its Arabian Nights' glamour we 
	cannot claim that it will help you win lotteries, sweepstakes or
	make big money in the commodities market. Magick should not be
	thought of as a push-button technology that directs impersonal
	energies, neither should it be used as a personal empowerment
	system to help one climb a corporate ladder and dazzle the
	opposite sex. If conscientiously pursued, the Art should actually
	achieve the opposite effect by leading you to *what you really 
	need* rather than giving you *what you think you want*.

>I speak directly to the reader as his own proctor.
>There is a HUGE difference. Your way implies a cult. 

it does? sorry about that. I meant to imply that as the corporate
ladder becomes a mystical and/or magical order rather than a big
business corporation, magical systems which work *against* the
corporate ladder-climbing, and thus might get in the way of ascension 
through one's initiatory or magical degree pursuits (i.e. it might be
valuable to avoid this type of magic at certain times, by your description.
  
>The way I presented it was a guideline for personal enlightenment.

is that what personal enlightenment is: getting what you really need
(whatever that is) rather than what you think you want? you've said
that Solomon's Magick as you're presenting it is powerful, especially
for the wisdom to see the way. I'm wondering whether this is a real
and important difference between mystical magic and nonmystical magic:

	* with mystical magic there is some kind of overarching 
	  Good Enveloping Plan into which each piece fits. if the
	  magician wants something that doesn't fit in with the
	  Good Enveloping Plan, then the magic that one does will
          help one to see why not getting what one wants is part
	  of the Good Enveloping Plan.

	* with nonmystical magic there is no necessary focus on some
	  kind of plan (or indeed Plan) at all. if the magician wants
	  something that doesn't fit in with someone's plan, then it
	  is one magician against another (perhaps natural) magician
	  until the greatest will wins out!

>...you should  learn how to quote someone's writing in a way that is 
>not designed or intended to embarrass them or misrepresent their ideas. 

teach me. I'm trying to quote more of your text. quote your own text
if you feel that I've misquoted, showing me where I'm going wrong.

>Work on this. Be conscientious, and I will respond in kind. It's up to 
>you.

here's my best shot. howzat, Poke??!

blessed beast!
nagasiva@luckymojo.com