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Reality and Character of Grimoire Spirits

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.chaos
From: nocTifer 
Subject: Reality and Character of Grimoire Spirits (Verum Silence Breakage)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 06:28:32 GMT

50040229 vii om -- <=============== (!) 49990909 

    HAPPY ERIS DAY, chaos..., revelation of a long-kept secret.

hi Poke-Gnome!  hey there Ka! nice thread!!

Poke/"Gnome d Plume" : 
#>#* As above, so below--remember? The Goetia spirits (and demons) 
#>#* are not *just in your mind.* They are a lot older, bigger and 
#>#* more knowledgeable than *you* are 

if I work up a new directory and call it "Evil Spirit Book",
will they necessarily be older because 'we all tie into the
forces of our deep minds'? i.e. is there some archetypal
theory that lies behind this magico-mysticalizing? "the
goetia" is the rough equivalent of "black magic". more than
one grimoire sports this sort of ascription (from "True 
Black Magic" to any number of other identifications). 

"As above, so below", comparably, is a somewhat ambiguous 
phrase from the Emerald Tablet of Hermetica. it may give 
the impression that one is 'made in the image of God', or 
'subject to the movements and conjunctions of the stars', 
or 'coterminus with the cosmos, despite appearances', or 
yet again 'the same after another fashion'.

when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)" 
is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
tame for *everybody* thereafter? or is this some kind of
helpful psychological trick that gets me integrated, and
the temporary consideration of disparate energies truly 
an artifice for some subjective effect that I achieve?

where do the "Above" and the "Below" each leave off?
this is in no wise obvious to all mages. do we contain
the same interiors, the wide world just an apparently
separate physical fabulosity our brain-minds can hardly
assimilate? if so, then said spirits may be coincident.
if not, and they extend no farther than our interiors, 
then each may establish their own relationship to these 
presumed spirits, with possibly to a different *set* of 
them within each of us. the answer is unclear.

#># No, they're not. They may have fooled you to believe 
#># they are "older, bigger and more knowledgeable than 
#># *you* are" but i now know better. I am their Creator 
#># and they shall adore me or feel the fire burning from 
#># my eyes.
#>* That's fine. You can have it that way in your universe 
#>* because it is *your universe*, and by the farthest 
#>* reach of Hermetic philosophy, you are God, so all your 
#>* rebellious spirits are under your control and are 
#>* inferior to you in knowledge, power and wisdom. 

inside out? outside in? are they more knowledgeable and
older or are we more so because we're some kind of God?
the ascription of "God" is important to mysticoreligious
mages with an interest in discovering and/or becoming
said almighty; communing with or exploiting their power,
knowledge, and wisdom. when is evaluation fallacious?

#> ...when i said i was their Creator i was not speaking 
#> as "God", but as a human. 

distinction. note: here human is not "God". this isn't 
followed by semi-pantheist God-lovers as from India where 
"I am God" (obliquely even "Thou art that") is met with 
nods of approval and acknowledgement. what does the 
identification of human and god (/God) warrant to those 
who have "realized it"? should we all obey their command?

#> If i create a thoughtform then i am its Creator....

the philosophic conundrum of "Creation" (as ex nihilo)
is an old one. "There is nothing new under the Sun"
runs the contrary thought-train. even modern science
seems to affirm the notion that we never really *make*
anything substantially, just shift forms around and
alter appearances. did you create that thoughtform?
or did it conform to your moulding like so much 
clay as it arose in your consciousness?

you ask for reflection on:
#> ...the use of the number 72 in the goetia. Apart 
#> from the 72 names of God in Judaism there are also 
#> the 72 virgins of heaven in Islam. 

this is inspiring and gives me reason to break silence.

The Goetia 72

72 x 5 = 360. it is a pentadinal division of a circle.
as such it may be related to zodiacal (12 x 30) or other 
astronomical divisions (e.g. decans(10) or faces(5)).
as it results from a sexigesimal orientation, in 6 x 12,
and participates in square numerical resonance (36 x 2:
perhaps 1x1x1x1x2x2x2x3x3 and thus a relative of 108 in
that the latter is 1x2x2x3x3x3), its generative completion
*might* take the form of 288 (being 72 x 4). this triangle
is immediately broken down (as 1^4x2^5x3^2) by the creative.

these are *not* "chaotic" numbers. the fact that there are
72 beings in any particular set indicates something other
than corrosion, entropy, and 'evil' per se. one may make 
all manner of contention as to the ascription of 'evil' 
to *odd* numbers, comparatively, though this merely gives
an indication of one's own biases and predilections (on
account that being able to reduce them implies their
malleability and ultimate composite form). 

as such, analyzing these "goetic" spirits by said number
character I am not left with the impression that they
are by their composition dangerous or evil. it is far
more likely that they are, by this character alone, some
cosmic retinue (compare the 12 disciples of the Solar 
Christ or the 64 dakini dancing around Cosmic Siva). 

The True Grimoire's 83

I am afforded an understanding in this analysis of some
comparable demons whose character and names are seldom
spoken in this forum, one of whose company did I seek
out on 9/9/99 (an escalation of Satanism in numeric
resonance) for the purpose of comraderie, pact-making,
and coalescence against non-Satanic interests: that 
of the demon BEELZEBUTH (/Beelzeboul/others).

while to date I have described my enterprise as being
"a goetic variant", those who are familiar with Goetic
spirits would know that Beelzebuth/Beelzeboul is not
one of the spirits contained within the Lemegeton.
instead, it is part of the True Grimoire, and today I 
make it more plain, in combination with commentary that 
its origins have greater *numerical* tuning with the 
forces of "evil" or chaos per se (trintary, pentadinal,
and resonant with the number of magic (83:: 8+3=> 11). 

while the 72 goetics may be said to be 'radial' and
astronomical in their geometry or symbolism, the demons
of "The True Grimoire" ("Grimorium Verum") have the 
following described hierarchy:

[from the Grimorium Verum or True Grimoire]
 Lucifer (2)                   | Beelzebuth (2)    | Astaroth (2)
  Satanackia (45)/             |  Tarchimache/     |  Sagatana/
   CHIEFS (4)    Agalierap (1) |           Flurity |     Nesbiros (2)
   Serguthy       Elelogap     |                          Hael 
   Heramael                                               Sergulath (8)
   Trimasael                                               Proculo
   Sustugriel (teaches magic)                              Haristum
   +41** more                                              Brulefer
INFERIORS (18)                                             Aglasis
---------                                                  Sidragosam
          Clauneck, Musisin, Bechaud,                      Minoson
          Frimost, Klepoth, Khil,                          Bucon
	  Mersilde, Clisthert, Sirchade
          Segal, Hicpacth, Humots,
	  Frucissiere, Guland, Surgat,
	  Morail, Fruitimere, Huictigaras
(from Shah*)

not only are demons from the True Grimoire described as less easily
discerned in any radial symmetry, they are less well-known, and no 
pictures of them are famous. their skills or strengths are given in 
the grimoire itself (e.g. "teaches magic" above), and there appear 
to be 83!** of them, which is the next highest prime *over* 9^2. this
is a far less easy structure to analyze as to its basis. it decidedly
is NOT astronomical in its composition, and nothing appears to be
known as to the demons that are subject to the rule of Beelzebuth,
with whom I had conference (if there are in fact any under hir).

the form is described as TRINITARIAN, ruled by well-known demons
who are associated with Cosmic Rebellion and Fall (the name of the 
demon Beelzebuth actually equatable to 'Lord of the Earth' -- thus
drawing my attention as the Marshall of the Armies of Darkness; 

which will be revised now after this 4.167 years of silence).

under Lucifer is a composite *49* (7^2) demons. often in occult
circles this number is taken as feminine, sometimes an escalation
of Venus, for whom the name Lucifer is indeed used as nickname.

under Beelzebuth are said to be two demons, one of whose sigils
(Tarchimache) is not even included for contact*. neither are
provided underlings and thus the set comprises 3 demons.

under Astaroth (who *is* #29 demon in the Lesser Key of Solomon),
there are a total of *13* demons. an additional 18 demons are 
assigned to "Duke Syrach", implied as a subsidiary of Astaroth 
(but as yet unclear to me where this Duke is to be situated --
corrections very welcomed as I sort through this).

ie is my suspicion that this spirit-structure is in fact inferred by
the author and may have no solid basis, being the best that could
be understood at the time. possibly the mage wasn't capable of coming
to comprehend the notion of a demonic anarchy. such implications were
certainly part of my general conclusions drawn from my encounters.
#> Do you agree 
#> that this is related to the... outdated view... 
#> that the Universe (or Big Mind as you put it) 
#> revolves around the Earth one degree every 72 years? 

it is *very* difficult not to understand these spirits as somehow
related to astronomical degrees or division (equal!) of the sky,
or the cosmic entirety (regions of dominion or domain of rule).

#> Galileo and Science has proven this belief to be in error 
#> so what does that mean for these myths/beliefs that were
#> built upon this error? 

once one reduces the "As above, so below" significance to a
strictly psychological mysticoreligious dissection of the
cosmos for an integration system, one may be faced with 
the outmodedness of the magical tool. this is what you are 
pointing out and with good cause. I look forward to reading
more and trying to figure that out. my own invocations have
not really involved goetic demons in the Lemegetonian sense.

#> The Church had to eventually give up its childish beliefs 
#> but what about Goetic magicians?

this is a very good objection to the machinations of goetic
theurges. there *are* 72 5-degree divisions of the cosmic 
round as seen from Terra Firma, however, so there is geometric 
and astronomic resonance that pertains to this system which may
be considered important in dealing with these specific spirits.
what the character of the spirits might be and whether they are
in fact demonic is reasonably challenged. what other demnic
grimoires might be contrasted with it beyond the True Grimoire
that explain the demons as adhering to other structures and
orders of hierarchy?
#> You might say, "Ahhh but it works!", but if "making it work" 
#> means having a belief in Illusions then surely this can only 
#> be seen as a distraction along ones path?

this may also be said for the Planets of the Ancients and the
Music of the Spheres which were thought to surround and rotate
about Terra Firma (the 'Chaldean' set of the Greeks). the work
of Agrippa in consolidating this and others before him (I'll
have some more to add in the coming months which about planet
and kamea attributions which *preceded* Agrippa's presentation,
from an essay by JLidaka) must also be questioned as to its use.
undergoing a cosmology shift, how much of the old *can* be used 
for the purposes of magic, reliably?
#> What if i don't want any "Rebellious Spirits" in "My 
#> Universe", is that allowed also? Or is your (or 
#> DuQettes') teaching that we are all "Hardwired" with 
#> these 72 spirits correct? 

are they merely known as "goetic" because they are associated
with astrocosmic function and therefore COMPETE WITH THE
(Christians?)? or is there some reason to think that they are
antagonistic to anyone save those who antagonize them? the
mandalesque composition of the spiritual ranks seem to give a 
magician reason to utilize them for something mysticoreligious.

#> If so then does this mean that even people in China or 
#> India have these 72 "rebellious spirits"?

they might make use of said spirits for that purpose. if the
spirits transcend human beings in some sence, perhaps they'll
be helpful in some mystical integration using the whole of the
grimoire in question (even regardless of their overall character). (Magickal Nature):
# perhaps there is a Kabbalistic [parallel] as well (more easily 
# seen in taro.)

32 (2^5) into 72 (2^3x3^2)? sounds messy. :> I'm game.  
78 it 72? 77? I don't follow your implications. 22?

#> Do you think, and this is a serious question, it is 
#> correct that after experiencing what is called the 
#> KCHGA one needs to evoke any demons at all?

the operations of the mage will include what are necessary
the complete fulfillment of the Great Work. each Magus is
likely to follow a different trajectory and therefore give
hir methods and sequential works will vary by combination.
some commonalities ('Adventures') are sometimes drawn out
*amongst* mages, however, and the Knowledge and Conversation
of the Holy Guardian Angel (K&C/HGA) is one of these. I can
inform you that to my knowledge the *evocation of demons*
was and will probably never be a part of my activities.
this is probably in part or in whole because my HGA is 
one I know Hir is The Queen of Demons. it was my task at
the appointed time (99/9/9) to marshall the Armies of
Darkness for the defense of Satan against humans.

balance (Crowley) left for review at a later date.

Hail Kali! Hail Eris! Hail Beelzebuth! Hail Satan!

                   apologies for any misattributions. 

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