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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.chaos From: nocTiferSubject: Reality and Character of Grimoire Spirits (Verum Silence Breakage) 50040229 vii om -- <=============== (!) 49990909 HAPPY ERIS DAY, chaos..., revelation of a long-kept secret. convoluted attribs. apologies for any misattributions. sort 'em yursef. "Gnome d Plume" : #>#* As above, so below--remember? The Goetia spirits (and demons) #>#* are not *just in your mind.* They are a lot older, bigger and #>#* more knowledgeable than *you* are if I work up a new directory and call it "Evil Spirit Book", will they necessarily be older because 'we all tie into the forces of our deep minds'? i.e. is there some archetypal theory that lies behind this magico-mysticalizing? "the goetia" is the rough equivalent of "black magic". more than one grimoire sports this sort of ascription (from "True Black Magic" to any number of other identifications). "As above, so below", comparably, is a somewhat ambiguous phrase from the Emerald Tablet of Hermetica. it may give the impression that one is 'made in the image of God', or 'subject to the movements and conjunctions of the stars', or 'coterminus with the cosmos, despite appearances', or yet again 'the same after another fashion'. when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)" is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become tame for *everybody* thereafter? or is this some kind of helpful psychological trick that gets me integrated, and the temporary consideration of disparate energies truly an artifice for some subjective effect that I achieve? where do the "Above" and the "Below" each leave off? this is in no wise obvious to all mages. do we contain the same interiors, the wide world just an apparently separate physical fabulosity our brain-minds can hardly assimilate? if so, then said spirits may be coincident. if not, and they extend no farther than our interiors, then each may establish their own relationship to these presumed spirits, with possibly to a different *set* of them within each of us. the answer is unclear. Ka: #># No, they're not. They may have fooled you to believe #># they are "older, bigger and more knowledgeable than #># *you* are" but i now know better. I am their Creator #># and they shall adore me or feel the fire burning from #># my eyes. Gnome/Poke: #>* That's fine. You can have it that way in your universe #>* because it is *your universe*, and by the farthest #>* reach of Hermetic philosophy, you are God, so all your #>* rebellious spirits are under your control and are #>* inferior to you in knowledge, power and wisdom. inside out? outside in? are they more knowledgeable and older or are we more so because we're some kind of God? the ascription of "God" is important to mysticoreligious mages with an interest in discovering and/or becoming said almighty; communing with or exploiting their power, knowledge, and wisdom. when is evaluation fallacious? Ka: #> ...when i said i was their Creator i was not speaking #> as "God", but as a human. distinction. note: here human is not "God". this isn't followed by semi-pantheist God-lovers as from India where "I am God" (obliquely even "Thou art that") is met with nods of approval and acknowledgement. what does the identification of human and god (/God) warrant to those who have "realized it"? should we all obey their command? #> If i create a thoughtform then i am its Creator.... the philosophic conundrum of "Creation" (as ex nihilo) is an old one. "There is nothing new under the Sun" runs the contrary thought-train. even modern science seems to affirm the notion that we never really *make* anything substantially, just shift forms around and alter appearances. did you create that thoughtform? or did it conform to your moulding like so much clay as it arose in your consciousness? you ask for reflection on: #> ...the use of the number 72 in the goetia. Apart #> from the 72 names of God in Judaism there are also #> the 72 virgins of heaven in Islam. this is inspiring and gives me reason to break silence. The Goetia 72 72 x 5 = 360. it is a pentadinal division of a circle. as such it may be related to zodiacal (12 x 30) or other astronomical divisions (e.g. decans(10) or faces(5)). as it results from a sexigesimal orientation, in 6 x 12, and participates in square numerical resonance (36 x 2: perhaps 1x1x1x1x2x2x2x3x3 and thus a relative of 108 in that the latter is 1x2x2x3x3x3), its generative completion *might* take the form of 288 (being 72 x 4). this triangle is immediately broken down (as 1^4x2^5x3^2) by the creative. these are *not* "chaotic" numbers. the fact that there are 72 beings in any particular set indicates something other than corrosion, entropy, and 'evil' per se. one may make all manner of contention as to the ascription of 'evil' to *odd* numbers, comparatively, though this merely gives an indication of one's own biases and predilections (on account that being able to reduce them implies their malleability and ultimate composite form). as such, analyzing these "goetic" spirits by said number character I am not left with the impression that they are by their composition dangerous or evil. it is far more likely that they are, by this character alone, some cosmic retinue (compare the 12 disciples of the Solar Christ or the 64 dakini dancing around Cosmic Siva). The True Grimoire's 83 I am afforded an understanding in this analysis of some comparable demons whose character and names are seldom spoken in this forum, one of whose company did I seek out on 9/9/99 (an escalation of Satanism in numeric resonance) for the purpose of comraderie, pact-making, and coalescence against non-Satanic interests: that of the demon BEELZEBUTH (/Beelzeboul/others). while to date I have described my enterprise as being "a goetic variant", those who are familiar with Goetic spirits would know that Beelzebuth/Beelzeboul is not one of the spirits contained within the Lemegeton. instead, it is part of the True Grimoire, and today I make it more plain, in combination with commentary that its origins have greater *numerical* tuning with the forces of "evil" or chaos per se (trintary, pentadinal, and resonant with the number of magic (83:: 8+3=> 11). while the 72 goetics may be said to be 'radial' and astronomical in their geometry or symbolism, the demons of "The True Grimoire" ("Grimorium Verum") have the following described hierarchy: [from the Grimorium Verum or True Grimoire] =========================================================================== SUPERIORS (3) -------- Lucifer (2) | Beelzebuth (2) | Astaroth (2) Satanackia (45)/ | Tarchimache/ | Sagatana/ CHIEFS (4) Agalierap (1) | Flurity | Nesbiros (2) Serguthy Elelogap | Hael Heramael Sergulath (8) Trimasael Proculo Sustugriel (teaches magic) Haristum +41** more Brulefer Pentagony INFERIORS (18) Aglasis --------- Sidragosam Clauneck, Musisin, Bechaud, Minoson Frimost, Klepoth, Khil, Bucon Mersilde, Clisthert, Sirchade Segal, Hicpacth, Humots, Frucissiere, Guland, Surgat, Morail, Fruitimere, Huictigaras ========================================================================= (from Shah*) not only are demons from the True Grimoire described as less easily discerned in any radial symmetry, they are less well-known, and no pictures of them are famous. their skills or strengths are given in the grimoire itself (e.g. "teaches magic" above), and there appear to be 83!** of them, which is the next highest prime *over* 9^2. this is a far less easy structure to analyze as to its basis. it decidedly is NOT astronomical in its composition, and nothing appears to be known as to the demons that are subject to the rule of Beelzebuth, with whom I had conference (if there are in fact any under hir). the form is described as TRINITARIAN, ruled by well-known demons who are associated with Cosmic Rebellion and Fall (the name of the demon Beelzebuth actually equatable to 'Lord of the Earth' -- thus drawing my attention as the Marshall of the Armies of Darkness; see http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/marshalling.9909 http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/marshalling.9910 which will be revised now after this 4.167 years of silence). under Lucifer is a composite *49* (7^2) demons. often in occult circles this number is taken as feminine, sometimes an escalation of Venus, for whom the name Lucifer is indeed used as nickname. under Beelzebuth are said to be two demons, one of whose sigils (Tarchimache) is not even included for contact*. neither are provided underlings and thus the set comprises 3 demons. under Astaroth (who *is* #29 demon in the Lesser Key of Solomon), there are a total of *13* demons. an additional 18 demons are assigned to "Duke Syrach", implied as a subsidiary of Astaroth (but as yet unclear to me where this Duke is to be situated -- corrections very welcomed as I sort through this). ie is my suspicion that this spirit-structure is in fact inferred by the author and may have no solid basis, being the best that could be understood at the time. possibly the mage wasn't capable of coming to comprehend the notion of a demonic anarchy. such implications were certainly part of my general conclusions drawn from my encounters. #> Do you agree #> that this is related to the... outdated view... #> that the Universe (or Big Mind as you put it) #> revolves around the Earth one degree every 72 years? it is *very* difficult not to understand these spirits as somehow related to astronomical degrees or division (equal!) of the sky, or the cosmic entirety (regions of dominion or domain of rule). #> Galileo and Science has proven this belief to be in error #> so what does that mean for these myths/beliefs that were #> built upon this error? once one reduces the "As above, so below" significance to a strictly psychological mysticoreligious dissection of the cosmos for an integration system, one may be faced with the outmodedness of the magical tool. this is what you are pointing out and with good cause. I look forward to reading more and trying to figure that out. my own invocations have not really involved goetic demons in the Lemegetonian sense. #> The Church had to eventually give up its childish beliefs #> but what about Goetic magicians? this is a very good objection to the machinations of goetic theurges. there *are* 72 5-degree divisions of the cosmic round as seen from Terra Firma, however, so there is geometric and astronomic resonance that pertains to this system which may be considered important in dealing with these specific spirits. what the character of the spirits might be and whether they are in fact demonic is reasonably challenged. what other demnic grimoires might be contrasted with it beyond the True Grimoire that explain the demons as adhering to other structures and orders of hierarchy? #> You might say, "Ahhh but it works!", but if "making it work" #> means having a belief in Illusions then surely this can only #> be seen as a distraction along ones path? this may also be said for the Planets of the Ancients and the Music of the Spheres which were thought to surround and rotate about Terra Firma (the 'Chaldean' set of the Greeks). the work of Agrippa in consolidating this and others before him (I'll have some more to add in the coming months which about planet and kamea attributions which *preceded* Agrippa's presentation, from an essay by JLidaka) must also be questioned as to its use. undergoing a cosmology shift, how much of the old *can* be used for the purposes of magic, reliably? #> What if i don't want any "Rebellious Spirits" in "My #> Universe", is that allowed also? Or is your (or #> DuQettes') teaching that we are all "Hardwired" with #> these 72 spirits correct? are they merely known as "goetic" because they are associated with astrocosmic function and therefore COMPETE WITH THE COSMOLOGY OF THOSE WHO PRIMARILY REGARD THEM AS DEMONIC (Christians?)? or is there some reason to think that they are antagonistic to anyone save those who antagonize them? the mandalesque composition of the spiritual ranks seem to give a magician reason to utilize them for something mysticoreligious. #> If so then does this mean that even people in China or #> India have these 72 "rebellious spirits"? they might make use of said spirits for that purpose. if the spirits transcend human beings in some sence, perhaps they'll be helpful in some mystical integration using the whole of the grimoire in question (even regardless of their overall character). perfect161@msn.com (Magickal Nature): # perhaps there is a Kabbalistic [parallel] as well (more easily # seen in taro.) 32 (2^5) into 72 (2^3x3^2)? sounds messy. :> I'm game. 78 it 72? 77? I don't follow your implications. 22? #> Do you think, and this is a serious question, it is #> correct that after experiencing what is called the #> KCHGA one needs to evoke any demons at all? the operations of the mage will include what are necessary the complete fulfillment of the Great Work. each Magus is likely to follow a different trajectory and therefore give hir methods and sequential works will vary by combination. some commonalities ('Adventures') are sometimes drawn out *amongst* mages, however, and the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel (K&C/HGA) is one of these. I can inform you that to my knowledge the *evocation of demons* was and will probably never be a part of my activities. this is probably in part or in whole because my HGA is one I know Hir is The Queen of Demons. it was my task at the appointed time (99/9/9) to marshall the Armies of Darkness for the defense of Satan against humans. Hail Kali! Hail Eris! Hail Beelzebuth! Hail Satan! nocTifer
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