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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.pagan.magick,alt.paranet.skeptic,sci.skeptic From: flufwiknSubject: Proving Things (E.G. Magic's Reality) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:48:47 GMT 50031018viiiom noname in alt.magick.tyagi: # I've read the postings via Googlegroups, that could take quite a while. it'd probably make you more aware of what these newsgroups are doing and who was and is in it than most regulars. you sure you haven't just sampled, put your toe in the water? a more thorough preparation would probably be engaged by a reading of the various FAQ documents, e.g. http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/ or http://www.luckymojo.com/faqs.html or any others that the interested see fit to post here (there *is* a new FAQ based on the initial FAQ by Shava floating about -- see that too for a Hermetic perspective on magic). a bit of investigation of source materials recommended by newsgroup regulars which describe practical and theoretical aspects of magic would also be helpful. this could even be done online, though terminological barriers may be encountered in certain subcultures (e.g. all the Crowleyan gobbledy-gook in Thelemics). # and I just don't get it. I do not believe in this stuff. the first point the reader of your challenge will notice, therefore, is that you are stating your unwillingness to surrender to a belief in magic without what you accept as evidence demonstrating its reality. this is very reasonable, if preliminary. # So here is everyone's chance to make me a beleiver a more vague Randian challenge, but without the $$. # - go ahead and prove the whole "Magick" thing to me. # I dare you to prove that it is real to me. you dare?! :> it so happens that this is a good test-case for the application of skepticism. in order to prove that magic is real (I'll leave you with the funny spellings), we'll have to determine a) what would constitute evidence, in your mind, that any particular thing, phenomenon, or person was "real"; clear examples, limitations, and base-level criteria should be expressed as regards magic as you're considering it, so that conformance will be easy to identify; b) how this evidence could be provided to you via the medium of a usenet newsgroup; whether others will be involved in the confirmation, if there is room for meatspace interaction, etc.; c) what its having been proven to you will mean to anyone else; whether you will thereafter become a spokesperson for the reality of the phenomenon of magic, whether you will write a book about the experience, turncoat to skeptics and expose the whole as a fraud, etc. :> it's one thing to wow an audience with subtle deceptions. go down to your local magic shop and you can get that. if you're willing to hand over your money, they'll even be willing to show you the secrets to some of the tricks. it's another thing to specify what you think magic is and how its reality would be confirmed by you. without that initial, clear specification, you'll be operating with so flexible a set of criteria and the variables of emotional persuasion allowed so much influence that your skepticism will never have a chance (nothing will be achieved). the result, absent this extension of your challenge, will be continued contrary-claims made by the same adherents who might futilely argue the matter from their preferred perspectives indefinitely. progress in the area of proof only comes with the agreement on the criteria for proof. once you've established that, then we'll have a better idea of what you are asking to witness or be shown. flufwikn nagasiva@luckymojo.com
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