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To: alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick.tyagi
From: ondrejkd@genco.com
Subject: Re: Off the wall question ( was: Re: Fluff-bunny Wiccans UNITE! (was other silly things) (fwd)
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 14:21:08 -0600

Dear Marjorie,

> I've got a question for the Satanists in the group.

OK.

> As a Wiccan, I have no problems with following the Ethic. I don't
> consider it all that limiting, but rather as a call to mindfulness.

 That depends on your interpretation, I guess.  As I have recently
pointed, a Satanist could follow the Rede quite well -- or at least one
interpretation of it.

> But that aside, what type of ethical system do Satanists or Setians, or
> whatever, use in their lives?

Setians and Satanists certainly differ in the basic structure of moral
beliefs. I consider Myself both, though probably more Setian as far as
ethics is concerned.  Do not generalize from My statements to either
group, though; what I say is My own opinion, developed through personal
study and practice.  Others may have their own ideas!

> If you simply go by "Do as you will", does  this mean that you consider
> humanity a hunting ground? Do you have *any* ethics at all regarding the use
> of magick?

I recognize Magus Crowley and his Word of Thelema as useful to Me.  It is
not a "do as you will" but "do as thou wilt;" have you been made aware of
the difference between those two sentences?  If not, either do a search
on the Web for "Thelema" or mail Me privately and I will explain My own
understanding and application of it.

I consider humanity not so much a "hunting ground" as opportunities to
learn and grow.  Most of them I treat (and not unjustifiably) as
machines: push this button, get this response.	I try to learn which
buttons do what on which machines, because I find the play fascinating.

My ethics is purely selfish.  I have learned through the years the truth
of karma -- not the New Age, pseudo-Eastern claptrap though.  Karma is a
simple law of action/reaction -- no threefold law, no divine retribution,
nothing like that.  I phrase it this way: the more that you do something,
the more you become the sort of person that does that sort of thing.

For instance, the more you kill people, the more you become a murderer. 
The more love you give, the more loving you become.  If you do an action
several times then it starts to become a habit for you -- you change
yourself by what you do.  Your actions decide what some of person you're
going to become.

So My "ethics" involves deciding what sort of person I want to Become,
then taking actions which will lead Me along that path.

> Here's a senario: You meet a *very* attractive woman you'd like to date.
> You ask, but she declines as she is in a relationship. You work magick to
> compel her to transfer her affections to you. This works (for whatever
> length of time you can control her). How does this differ from rape? Do
> you care?

Every act of meaningful communication is an attempt at manipulation. 
Rape generally uses force or the threat of force to accomplish
penetration -- it is not primarily an act of desire but an act of
violence.  Manipulation uses less blatantly-physical means.

Let's say We have the situation you describe above.  Now, instead of
using magic, I decide to "woo" her away from her beau.	I am charming,
considerate, well-dressed, and polite; I find out what her favorite candy
is and send her a box of it, with flowers; I contrive to attend the same
events she attends; I make use of whatever excuse I can come up with to
speak to her.  Eventually, she comes to "see" that I am a more desirable
person than her current lover and throws herself at My feet.

How is *that* different from rape?  How is that different from magic?

How both differ from rape is fairly obvious, I think: in the end (that
is, after the spell or courtship), the woman actually believes that she
is in love with Me.  I would not expect a rape victim to harbour similar
tender feelings. The magic may simply be a quicker means to that end.

Make no mistake, Marjorie; someone skilled in the art of seduction can do
what I have described with quite as good a success rate as any
spellcaster.  That is often called, in Satanic circles, "Lesser Black
Magic" even though there is nothing exactly "paranormal" about it.

Now, I do not care to become a callous person who can do something like
that without regard to the feelings or thoughts of the person involved. 
When I do such a thing, I make sure that I am completely willing to love
and cherish the other person entirely and without reservation.	(Either
that, or I make sure that I really have no respect whatsoever for them --
but that is rare.)

Crude spellcasting -- trying to change someone's desires or thoughts all
at once -- doesn't often work very well.  Magic is an art, and there is a
control and delicacy in it that is actually quite beautiful.  Getting
someone to do what you want to do usually involves convincing them from
the inside, showing them that what you want them to do is what they
really do want to do anyhow.  This is true whether you are doing it with
OR without magic.

> Talk about differing opinions. I've always thought of Satanism as a
> fairly fluffy bunny religion since 99.9% of the ones I've met have been
> more into the idea of "I can do *anything* I want!" than they are in any
> concrete philosophy or religious thought. And then there are those who
> are obviously in it as a counter to Christianity, and their favorite
> pastime is to try to shock the mundanes.

Been there, done that, even got the T-shirt to prove it.  (It's a nice
white one with a clown's face on the front, surrounded by pentagrams, and
says "REMEMBER KIDS...SATAN LOVES YOU!")  I think it's a real howl.

> Do you actually *use* magick regularly?  Is this part of your religious
> practice at all?

Yes, depending on what you mean by magick.  I've taken to doing Liber
Resh daily, as well as performing the LBRP regularly, as per Crowley. 
The directed rituals (ie, magic for a purpose) are done...whenever I feel
a need to. Sometimes not for a few months, sometimes two or three times
in one week.

I hope that helped answer some of your questions, at least according to
My way of looking at it.


-- Regards,

VonDraco

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