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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick.serious
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Mysticism and Magic (/Theurgy and Thaumaturgy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:29:49 GMT

50030716 viii

djcameron60616@yahoo.com (stg-delfuego) [edited]:
#> In the Christian sense, there are certain warnings on Wizardry or
#> Sorcery or Witchcraft .. in what context were these set?  In other
#> words, there are a few prayers or invocations to certain spirits where
#> a hush-hush deal is set, to not spill out to Yahweh that it was there
#> conversing with you on arcane matters.  Same goes to Divination for
#> that matter .. 

perhaps within certain Christian contexts, yes.

#> ...what is so worth it in Magick or to the self that you would 
#> blow past those warnings like stop signs, to engage in the 
#> practise of sorcery over the ideal sinless lifestyle?

if one wasn't ruled by the forbiddings of the God. beyond this,
and generally, magic is usually described as the tool by which
fabulous riches (or at least knowledge of buried treasure or
some other kind of gain) might be had, and this isn't something
that the religion will ordinarily provide, in contrast, though
the two may interweave sometimes quite interestingly (such as
when a minister does a spell to draw people to services).

#> I know people hate that question but it was mentioned - 
#> kinda in Beginner's Question, and was stuck on my mind.

you'd be safe in assuming that those who REGARD WHAT THEY
ARE DOING AS SOMEHOW CONTRARY TO THEIR RELIGION are probably
not very pious, whereas a good number of mages think that
magic is part of the religion they're practicing, or at least
that their divinity isn't *really* restricting them from it,
even if that impression may be given through religious groups
and/or popular presumptions about what is called 'magic'.

#> ...what is the breakdown of magick use among present-day 
#> religions, and past religions?  What similarities are
#> there?  

some of the answer to these questions will of course be
determined by the MEANING OF THE WORDS YOU'RE USING.
'sorcery', for example, is seldom practiced by those of
particular religious groups like Christianity under this
name. the term has been used as a castigation rather than 
describing anything specific, quite like 'witchcraft' 
but with greater stigma against it (compare 'black magic').
most words describing what we're discussing have at least
*started out* this way (the very term 'magic' applied by
the Greeks to describe the heinous practices of Persian
religious).

forgetting all of that and sticking to my favourite
meanings for the words, magic and religion are eternally
at odds. what is called magic is dependent upon gods
or spirits for its leverage of change. it is not magic 
in the strict sense of the term, it is theurgy -- a kind 
of engineering of prayer.

at most magic of this kind becomes a kind of scientific 
enterprise, whereby the 'natural magician' seeks to use 
the matter available (often aligned to 'the Doctrine of
Signatures' presumed to be a principle or Law of the
cosmos, sometimes of the Creation) to cause what 
has been observed possible by repeated similar use.

magic proper has absolutely nothing to do with religion,
though it may facilitate religious objectives, style
itself on religious themes, or utilize religious 
symbols and tools. deriving its impetus and ultimate
authority from the magician hirself, magic is the use
of symbolism to effect a change in the cosmos fueled
by the application of the will to a desired result.

the similarities between magic and religion are many.
it is claimed that magic is used to *make religions*.  
typically one might say that the God of the religious
is the one that does the magic *for* the faithful,
and sometimes this is effected by ecclesiastic
communities in hierarchy (clergy) *assisting* the God
to benefit the community of the faithful (as in the
routinized feeding of the Elect with Special Medicine).

#> What about Goetic magick, from what religion does 
#> that come from, any variations?

as I understand it, Goetic magic is a Christian attempt
to appropriate Solomonic (Jewish) magic for conventional 
aims (like getting rich, learning things, etc.). it is 
given variation by those who want to turn it into a
mystical enterprise in combination with other grimoire-
based constructs. I hope to be corrected if I err.

#> What religion-neutral magick practise is there?

ALL magic *is* religion-neutral. those which are
dependent upon some kind of religion are just fronts.
 
Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
# ...Magick is a spiritual art form that is a courageous 
# expression of the romantic human spirit. The magician takes
# heaven by storm and rakes the depths of hell at his will 
# and pleasure.

this is more accurately termed a mystical application
of magical methods. magic itself is not de facto spiritual,
nor does it necessarily have anything to do with realms
beyond the physical, demonstrable, material world.

# He doesn't do this because he thinks God is "dead" or 
# irrelevant; quite to the contrary: he believes in the 
# awesome power of God more than many who hide behind 
# the Bible, but he also believes in the Divinity of Man. 

the presupposition of any God is unnecessary to magic.
even 'divinity' is unnecessary for the practice of magic,
though it is conventional to regard magicians as somehow
ascending to the status of divinities upon achievement 
of their power (e.g. Apollonius of Tyana or Simon Magus).

# Magick is the supreme spiritual adventure....if you
# have the spiritual courage to handle it. ****

more accurately, the practice of mysticism is said
supremitude. magic is one trajectory of mystical success.
others include asceticism and repetitive focus of 
attention to the exclusion of all other sensory input
(conventionally: meditation).

nagasiva