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Mind-Only vs Magical Link

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Re: Mind-Only vs Magical Link (was Spellcasting Qs)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:55:25 GMT

50011220 VI! om 

	mind-only is to magical link         as belief is to volition?

"Nova Solo" :
> I hadn't provided the quote with the intent of answering your question.  

yeah, I figured you were being playful. :>

>>> counter a blind assertion hits me and I cave in.

>> and respond with other blind assertions?

> I don't think they're blind.  It's possible they are.  Evidently, 
> you think they are.

depends on your meaning. I doubt you know that person well, for example.

>>> My purpose here is not, in fact, to "fruitfully engage" in any
>>> "discussions" in alt.magick.  I'm here to get, not to give.

>> then you become ignorable and alike to many of the Trolls, which I think
>> would be a sad development because I like you.

> It's possible to like me, but not to like my approach to some matters.  If
> you dislike my few contributions on a.m. and you find them distracting, then
> it might be worth the time it takes to plonk me, for you.  I find I can
> ignore most posters just by not reading the stuff they post.  

just disappointment, hoping to see more from you, because I like you and I
like how you think and write.

>>> Like I said, every now and then I can't resist the urge.
>>> However, stupidity is its own reward and I've gotten what I deserved
>>> for not keeping my mouth shut.  I will be more careful in the future.

taking it like a smack, I suppose. certainly that isn't how I meant it.
more I want to get deeper into the Placebo vs. Links analysis, and I will
need someone who cares about the one side while I take the other. :> problem 
is I have never felt Placebo had much to offer, such that it would be 
compelling or more than a mere statement based on the notion of belief,
and how this works in the world.

> I'm still working on the document I said I'd write up.  I'm finding that the
> more I write, the more I want to include and I can't quite figure out which
> bit to put first.  

how about if I suggest a structure? do with it what you like:

	A) BELIEF -- what belief is; how it relates to thought and time

	B) REALITY -- how what we believe affects and determines what's real

	C) MAGIC -- the manipulation of belief through multiple methods in 
		    order to affect more than merely our perceptions; what
		    are common facets of magical practice and why, etc.

I'd suggest that philosophers of the school I'd describe as "Subjectivist"
would be good background: Berkeley, Sartre, Hume, maybe Schopenhauer (if
you want to get into will-makes-change-as-part-of-metaphysics) or Fichte,
to follow Crowleyan advice, perhaps bypassing his Link nonetheless.

> As we've already discovered, simply saying "Magick is
> about making your subjective reality an objective experience" (or as I said
> earlier, delusion and illusion until delusion and illusion become reality)
> doesn't cut it.  

it doesn't constitute more than a statement, true.

> Do I retrace my steps of how I came to this conclusion?

a good idea if it helps any.

> How do I define magick, and how do I separate the definition of magick from
> the "action" of magick? 

or other comparable things.

> Do I start with philosophy and work outward?  
> I thought it'd be easy, until I really started typing. Then I realized that
> it's not like telling someone how to make a peanut-butter sandwich.  It's
> more like trying to explain what a peanut-butter sandwich is to someone
> who's never eaten solid food.  At least, I'm trying to approach it from that
> basic a level. 

you may be struggling to find a language which is seldom used, but which
may find expression in the mystics and especially philosophers of
Subjectivism (what is perceived, what is experienced, is the real, and
this is particularly central in Hume and Berkeley if memory serves).

> Should I?  I thought it would avoid more questions if I tried
> to answer them in one document.

I think if you can't approach a single document then it would be fun to
take it a little bit at a time. I'd start with asking you to come up
with an hypothesis that goes along with each of the SECTIONS that I
outlined above (BELIEF, REALITY, MAGIC), and see if I had queries that
might refine them, challenge them, and open them up somehow.

the way I see it, there's bound to be at least a couple dozen of varying
perspectives/theories which may be derived from that vantage-point, and
almost never are they drawn out and taxonomized for the students of the
occult, let alone *by* students.

> Try not to be impatient with me.  I want it to be right, even when my
> vocabulary fails me.

then let's presume you have the vocabulary for now. I'd suggest trying
out three hypotheses under the headings I gave above, ignoring most if
not all the conversation we're having about the subject. 

in fact, I'll try to do that with respect to the Magical Link right here,
and you can mimic me, if you like, with those above. if you have any
difficulties, we can talk about each of the headings and what might best
constitute hypotheses comparable to those below.

   WILL -- The first requisite is the acquisition of adequate force of the 
           kind required for the purpose (in adequate strength in an 
	   appropriate manner). [straight from Crowley's MiTaP]

    hypothesis1: there exists some cosmic Way, Destiny or Best Course, 
    	         toward which things gravitate or in which direction
	         they are more easily moved by the mage

	   Crowley's example: my will is to blow my nose.

   REALITY -- The second requisite is the configuration of events and
	      phenomenon such that what is desired is possible to achieve.
	       [333 summary reflecting on Crowley's MiTaP(NOTE 1)]

    hypothesis2: there is something which can be changed by the proper 
	         cause or stimulus whose structure and relation to the 
	         rest of the cosmos serves to restrict or make more 
	         efficient the application of said stimulus

	   Crowley's example: I have a nose which is capable of being blown.

   MAGIC -- The third requisite is the method by which will may be applied
            to change reality.

    hypothesis3: there is a technique for expressing spiritual will 
	         in desired application. [Crowley's MiTaP]
	   Crowley's example: muscular and tensive movements 
			      combined with expulsion of air
	                      through a contraction of the diaphragm. 
				(333 summary reflecting Crowley's MiTaP] 

how's that?

now the main difference seems to be in the primary or essential
determining factor (BELIEF or WILL). for this reason we could probably
flesh out our agreement as regards reality and magic and see if there
is a clear parallel after the principle axiom is accepted regarding
what makes things happen or possible. :>

NOTE 1 -- MiTaP = "Magick in Theory and Practice", Aleister Crowley,

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