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To: alt.satanism,alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred) Subject: Magick and Maturity (Was Re: Mr Scratch's humble opinions ;)) Date: 4 Mar 1995 11:33:40 -0800 Kali Yuga 49950304 "Mr. Scratch"and Kevin Filan discuss: [Mr. Scratch begins, I think, though I'm unsure as they weren't identified] |>|Since most members held down rather mundane jobs and generally lived |>|ordinary lives outside their ritual chambers, there was something |>|pathetic about this collective delusion of grandeur. The notion that magick is not mundane or is unordinary is rather limited. I think that some people take what are considered 'magical tools' into the entirety of their lives while others keep them within the ritual space for emphasis. Some apparently need to differentiate between the tools/symbols/rite-space and the rest of their lives. So it goes. I don't prefer this, personally, which may be why I keep my robes on and occasionally carry Yggdrasil-stafff (good hiking tool!) or the ritual knife-unnamed (lovely for cutting meat!). [Kevin:] |>...many people within the occult community in general ... have low |>self-esteem and seek to prop it up by seeking "magickal powers." It may be rather callous to characterize it merely as 'seeking to prop it up' as compared to 'seeking to bolster and reinforce it'. The difference is that with the latter one may reach a transformative experience which actually supports the self-esteem with substance rather than merely pretense. [Mr. Scratch:] |...I would extend this kind of impulse far beyond the occult community, |possibly to the entire world of religion and politics. Yes, so would I. |...People reach for elaborate constructs, things that will give them a |place, things that will give them a sense of control. Things that will |tie all the essentially random and meaningless occurences we encounter |together into one great pattern. I agree, though perhaps don't always spin it this way. ;> |>...most of the problems I found existed outside the ToS just as clearly |>as within it, and ...they had to be dealt with no matter where you go. I find this to be very common: we see a problem within a group and think that it is specific to the group instead of noticing that it is prevalent in the society surrounding that group or from which that group draws its membership. |...I was also among those who relied on my identity as a magician to prop |up my ego. Again the bias of 'propping up'. While I agree that identifying as a mage can be a very deep and dangerous self-delusion, I also think that it can be an important magical working all its own. |This tendancy fell by the wayside as I came to understand what magic |really is. Is it only one thing? |I too bought into the popular-culture myth that magic = sheer egoic power; |that with a wave of the hand, some spectacular display of supernatural |fireworks would burst out and change the world in an obvious way. Clever words here. Would you say that it is possible that these 'fireworks' might *actually* be taking place in the 'astral realm' (I tend to mean by 'astral' the realm of (shared) imagination/symbol)? |As long as I struggled to maintain this magic, it eluded me, and I |remained somewhat stunted emotionally. This is a very important reflection, I think, one which describes quite a bit that goes on in the magical community. It is one of the reasons that I have encountered and portrayed the Abyss as a miasm of repressed emotional energy, since I find that I was/am emotionally stunted in part through the mechanisms inherent to my society and that this is common among mages. |...magic has less to do with shredding the fabric of the universe, and |more to do with the thrill of recognizing magic in it's subtle and |hidden/obvious forms. Oh? Is this like saying 'magick is more natural than supernatural'? In some ways I think that 'shredding the microcosm' (or at least the perceived and largely socially-derived microcosm) is a great deal of what magick is about (cf sufism or any other mystical discipline). |I am a "super magician", not because I can summon frightful demons in |a puff of noxious fumes, If one were to see this as an astral activity (i.e. infusing the world of the mind into the world of matter), then do you see that some mages may well be *able* to summon frightful demons in noxiousness? |or because I can make money mysteriously appear in my wallet. I think Crowley writes about this in _Moonchild_ somewhat and how such things are indeed part of the practice of magick, though it need come from sincere desire to manifest the object(s). |...I am such because I can see the patterns and techniques developed to |set our Wills in motion. What I see you doing here is placing emphasis upon knowledge (the science of magick) rather than on works (the art of magick). That's great, but you seem to be claiming that yours is the 'correct path' whereas the alternative (perhaps because it has not worked for you) is 'false' or somehow 'deluded'. This may be an error on your part. |PERCEPTION is the key to seeing magic and making it work for you, not |chalking out circles on the floor, or studying dusty grimores, or |swaggering around in archaic black clothes reminding yourself and |others that you are a magician. Isn't this One Right Wayism? I get the impression that different people need different things in order for them to be able to work their craft. Don't you think that *understanding* something is different, in essence, from *being able to do it*? Or are you saying that magick is entirely a subjective thing, that if we can intentionally see things certain ways then 'for us they'll become real'? That would sort of take the power out of the entirety, don't you think? What about Crowley's 'Magical Link' and the mechanics of *doing something*? |Do you want to experience real magical power? Say the right words to |the right people in the right atmosphere, and they will fall under your |spell: give you their money, minds, souls and undying loyalty, be it |in church, the Republican convention, an advertizing audience or a |rock-and-roll concert. Half of this is perceiving the 'right conditions/actions' and the other half is *being able to effect them*. The first is the Knowledge, the second is the Conversation. Comprehending the science of an art is not the same as mastering that art. Both are important. |...I hardly ever waste my time reading occult esoterica: my magic tomes |come in the form of literature, history, sociology, physics and |psychology books. It is said that those studies you mention here are the *foundation* of the magician's education. Once one has absorbed sufficient data on those fronts, then, it is said, the 'occult esoterica' become more clear in their purpose: as technical manuals pertaining to the specifics of the craft. Perhaps you are sufficiently studied to be developing your own technique and find little value in reviewing those of others. Compare the activity of reviewing occult esoterica with the cellist who reads discussions by great masters of the cello through the history of the instrument, or with the scientists who review new theories and data within modern scientific journals. These resources are forums for quite technical exchange. In that magick is the study of and ability to cause change, it is not surprising that as precursor to its comprehension we ought learn the philosophies and forms of Science and Art. This is comparable to examining specimens in the field prior to learning environmental biology. Once we have studied sufficiently to know the rudimentary elements of both general and specific, then we can seek out what we need most (i.e. stick to the specific and developed arts and sciences or study the Art and Science which underlies them). |(I once surprised a would be spell-caster who asked to see my favorite |books on magic. Expecting to see _the Book of the Law_ or something on |the Kabbala, I instead presented him with _Webster's Dictionary_, |Orwell's _1984_ and a copy of _The Cartoon History of the Universe_! He was apparently asking for a general work on the subject rather than works pertaining to specific elements of the craft. |He was non-plussed. So would I have been, though I would have asked you why you selected those books, what about them you associated with magick, etc. |Next time I'll throw in a Calvin and Hobbes book for good measure!) Wonderful source material. I do not think, however, that such examples are very good references for technical information on the subject of magick. Compare _Book Four_ or some more philosophical treatises put forward by Greek, Chinese and Indian writers. |More magic is to be found in the midst of the Pepsi vs. Coca-Cola wars |than is to be found in some pagan's collection of mojo bags and crystals. I'd like to know whether you think you might be conflating competing notions of 'magic' here. You are after all comparing a relationship/event with various objects. My suspicion is that you may be downplaying these popular tools for effect rather than with some coherent assertion in mind. Elaborate? |REMEMBER this when you speak of magic. So long as you can maintain this |understanding and put it into practice (as I think you are capable of) then |you would indeed be a "super magician". I suggest to you that you erred most greatly by presuming yourself to *be* a 'super magician', and then instead of rescinding this error, you merely redefined what a 'super magician' is so as to include *knowing* rather than *doing*. Now, stuck in your certainty about what magick is and is not, you make grandiose claims and belittle people and traditions with a sort of pomposity once cherished surrounding 'fireworks'. The error continues but only in a different realm of assertion. I don't know you. I'm reacting to your post. See if anything here fits. |>...this tendency to "ego inflation" is something that every honest member |>of the Temple of Set should address on a personal level. Until you get |>past it, you'll never be able to Xeper past a very limited point. 'Getting past' ego inflation makes it sound like it is a kind of immature activity. I agree that it is often engaged *by* the immature (and would not exclude myself from this group), but I do think it wise to acknowledge that it may also be a very important TECHNIQUE, a mechanism of transfor- mation. |I have made this my personal project within the Temple, both to understand |such impulses in myself... A wonderful focus! Ego and the self are, I think, the very heart of the occult path, usually covered over by layers and layers of delusions (fabricated by society and self). What these are, whether they are different, how they interact if they are different, etc., are fundamental questions within mysticism. How we answer these (if we do) may set the stage for the entire atmosphere of our lives. |and to develop a means by which other members can work on their own issues. I think that this is the major focus within the occult community, sometimes in reflection of one's own process, but usually so that other people can 'get with the program', kind of like making more tools so that other people will be able plow the field, sometimes so that we can avoid plowing ourselves. |I've gotten a good running start on it. Is this an ego-trip? :> | WILL \ | / LOVE \\|// !! !! __\\|//__ \{}}}{{{}/ ____|___________|@@| "Imagination is more important than knowledge." _ _ | | - Albert Einstein tyagi / \ nagasiva |(*)(*)| tyagi@houseofKAos.abyss.com \^^^^^^/ House of KAoS -^^^^- 871 Ironwood Dr. ~~ San Jose, CA 95125-2815 'Hsi.Wang.Mu' on Divination Web Telnet to: bill.math.uconn.edu 9393
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