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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc From: nagasivaSubject: Re: Magic in the Middle Ages - Jewish vs. Christian Perspectives Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:49:42 GMT 50020213 VI om John Bilodeau wrote "Magic in the Middle Ages -- Jewish vs Christian Perspectives", an essay stored at http://www.luckymojo.com/magic/jb200112middleages.txt and originally posted to alt.magick in December 2001 (extremely interesting essay!) including this premise: > It is perhaps obvious from the preceding statements > that my own definition of magic, for the purposes of > this discussion, must be vague and plastic, if the > medieval perception of magic is to be given a chance > to express itself. with this it is quite easy to agree. after the essay is over, and you are done speaking of history, you may wish to firm up your parameters. so I'll here argue why there should be limitations on what constitutes magic outside the kind of context in which you were speaking (one into which I'm hoping to draw you for more candid discussion). > In the interest of circumscribing the topic, I will > consider magical any phenomenon that is considered > supernatural that has an element of human involvement. we are here left to ponder the meaning of 'supernatural'. as this was your only mention of the term in your essay, which seems a weakness. where the realm 'natural' is allowed to frolic, no more magic will take place. > I will not distinguish between a religious act and a > magical one. makes sense. I don't see any hard and fast distinction necessary between the two anyway. they seem to me to be of two distinct characters (religious is more communal, magical is more individual), but they blend into one another quite easily, there being groups of magicians and individual mystics and spiritualists. however, I shall look for reasons to separate them below. > A prayer that is answered will be considered as > magical as a successful incantation, this much is supportable. > a prophet's dream of the future will be > considered a diviner's successful augury. but here you step beyond the notion of intentionality. the prophet's dream is not intentional, though the result of the diviner is certainly so. so in this expansive consider- ation you are ignoring the oft-claimed defining quality of at least (and especially successful) magic -- the ability to call it at will, to be capable of demonstrating it, even if under quite peculiar conditions. > I propose that we allow > the medieval Jewish and Christian authorities the > privilege of creating the distinctions between magic > and religion. for each religion their authority may set these, agreed. it would be helpful if they also defined their terms in even such broad generalizations as you have laid out here for your essay. typically they do not, however, and a terminological tar pit must be navigated in struggling to comprehend the motivations and mechanisms involved in the behaviour of some religious as regards magic, divination and sometimes even alchemy. > From these distinctions we will perhaps > be able to divine for ourselves what magic meant to > both European Jews and Christians in this period. clever turn of phrase there. beyond what it may have meant to people who are now dead and gone, how do you think what these people believed about magic and the world has come to influence the world into which you were born and the world today? what evidence of this influence may be readily seen around us, if any? > ... > > A definition of magic must exist in the mind of > the individual before belief in magic can grow > or fade, logically false on its face. a number of beliefs ABOUT magic may be accepted without any of them being correct, coherent, or consistent enough to obtain a concise definition. > and of course before any practice that is > considered magical can be performed or > persecuted. ambiguous on its face. 'considered magical' can be applied to any number of considerers. in this context it seems to imply consideration by those who are doing it, but the mention of persecution frees up any limitation on who is considering. so I don't think a definition in the mind of the thinker needs be required in order to make the ASSOCIATION of the term 'magical' with a thing. it may be common to consider something wondrous to be 'magical' and yet be unable to reconcile one's thoughts and feelings surrounding the very diverse notions about magic one believes or suspects based on vague or hazy evidence. for example, my Uncle Ernie tells me that, besides the hovering alien invaders in the clouds above every city on the planet, he knows that there is a magical force at work increasing the usage of satellite dishes. from this conversation I might, as a youngster, get a vague concept of what the term 'magical' means (unexplained? 'supernatural'?) but will arrive at no necessary definition, especially when Uncle Ernie seems so worried about the dishes, too, while Aunt Zelda is very excited about the magical circles she and her other lesbian friends are going to in the woods on retreats with lots of fun and sex and stuff. something doesn't quite connect, so a definition has to wait a while. sometimes these definitions simply never materialize. why need they, except in forums and discussions such as this? thanks for the essay. it was lovely. I hope you keep posting to this forum, for I enjoy your expression. blessed beast! nagasiva@luckymojo.com http://www.luckymojo.com/barrett/earhead.html
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