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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.fan.harry-potter
From: elendraug 
Subject: Is Harry Potter Demonic?
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:38:27 GMT

50040314 vii om

Is Harry Potter Demonic?

spoiler ---------------------------------- discussion includes all books
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spoiler ---------------------------------- discussion includes all books

"selina" :
# Hi. 

peace be with you, sister.

# I'm Selina and I have a question. 

you've come to the right place, then.

# I heard that Harry Potter story books/movies are demonic. 
# Is it true? Any [proof] or evidence?

malevolent archenemies have been terrestrial or fantastic,
but I do not specifically remember demonic references, no.

sometimes there are 'foul spirits' which scream and scare
from the interior of a book in the 'Restricted' section
(meaning that kids shouldn't be reading those), but other
than a particularly resourceful alumnus of Hogwarts whose
interest in surviving depends on his vampirism and black
magic, his henchpeople and weapons are Terran. there has
been little to no mention of 'infernal worlds' that I can
recall, but I may be forgetting something and hope that I
will be corrected, if so. my guess is that the cosmology
accepted by Wizards (not presented that I've detected) is
not Christian or following any rise and development of a
God, the offspring of a God or gods, or their worship. I
would suggest that these origination notions are left out
in order to make the story more approachable. where 'history
of magic' is instructed, for example, probably evolution
and biology would be important to understanding of early
human magical activities -- e.g. shamanic, primitive, 
and neolithic archaeoastrology sites (like Stonehenge),
but (European) recent history is what is usually discussed. 

the curriculum may therefore be considered "demonic" if
by this you also imply instructing other than biblical
realities and authorities. specific references are made
to traditional occultists (notably Nicolas Flamel, the
alchemist), and there are pop-occult references interior
to this last book's chapter-names: 'The Lion and the
Serpent' (fairly conclusively Crowleyan). the latter's
works are considered at least de facto Satanist, this 
mention being Neognostic, so there are minor symptoms of 
exposure to that which you might call 'the demonic' (e.g. 
sorcery, witchcraft, divination, primarily wand-based).

of course a in cosmological sense, what derives from demons
(what is properly "demonic") depends on how we think that
the cosmos came about and what part demons had in it. the
Christians who believe apocrypha would say that the whole
of the story is demonic in that it partakes of spells and
wands and fantastical monsters and flora which do not in
large exist physically as portrayed (the mandragora being
a singular example of this, another being the elves and
giants, and another being a basilisk). instruction on the
arts of magic is often associated with the 'Fallen angels'
(see Paul Huson's lovely "Mastering the Art of Witchcraft"). 

as with a good number of works intended for children, the
puns abound and religious philosophy is absent, though
references *are* made to magical secrets or mysteries, and
the whole rather predisposes the valuation of magic (the
school is an educational facility for instruction of it).

as the series develops we may look forward to emancipation
showcased as a virtue (in the removal of the slavery of the
elves -- LONG LIVE S.P.E.W.!), and a somewhat conventional
showdown between the heroic boy-becoming-man and the long-
lived nemesis of his family and kindred, possibly extending
beyond the local region to other schools and localities. 

it is, therefore, very easy to understand why some churches
have *embraced* the series as instructive for Christians
(see "The Real Magic of Harry Potter" by Nancy Gibbs, in
Time, June 23, 2003, coverstory "Why Harry Potter Rules")
wherein it is written about Christians who like Potter:

	The Catholic News Service, run  by the American
	bishops, puts the books on its recommended list
	for children. Ministers preach sermons likening
	Harry's running through the wall of Platform 9 3/4
	to a leap of faith. "We're missing something if
	we can't tell stories from the Bible as compelling
	as *Harry Potter*," says John Fleming, minister of
	First United Methodist in Henrietta, Texas. Many
	have found embedded in the books all kinds of
	biblical imagery. "If you read these books care-
	fully, they are not only not evil, they are
	profound stories about good, and they are deeply
	religious," argues Baylor University philosophy
	professor Scott Moore, who started by reading the
	books to his kids and ended up staying up late to
	finish for himself.

	The climax of the second book, *Chamber of Secrets*,
	he asserts, works as pure Christian allegory. "It's
	the story of Harry fighting a serpent and overcoming 
	it with the sword of Gryffindor [his school House]. 
	He is unable to accomplish this by himself and must
	call for help, which comes from above, most often in
	the form of the word of truth or a double-edged sword.
	It's not just a snake he has to overcome, but a snake
	summoned by {the evil wizard} Voldemort's memory.
	Over and over in these medieval mystery morality 
	plays, it's the memory of our sinfulness that we must
	overcome. The phoenix -- a classic symbol of Christ,
	who dies and rises again -- comes to help him. He
	kills the serpent, then in a moment quite shocking --
	I'm surprised Hollywood left it in -- the phoenix
	weeps in his wound to heal him. That's a classic
	symbol of Christ's passion. It's Christ's tears that
	make us whole."

	Perhaps the most surprising appropriation of Rowling's
	world took place at the conservative Vanguard Church
	in suburban Colorado Springs, Colo. Housed in an old
	movie theater, the six year old church has 1,100 members,
	including lots of young families. Using *Harry Potter*
	to teach Sunday school was the brainchild of Tosha
	Williams, the petite young wife of senior pastor Kelly
	Williams. "That's one thing about Southern Baptists --
	we're very pragmatic," she notes, "and our goal is to
	reach people with the Gospel." So the teachers dressed
	as wizards, and the church was entirely decorated, with
	darkened rooms and glow-in-the-dark props and hot dogs 
	renamed goblin fingers. When the kids put on the Sorting
	Hat that determines the fate of young wizards in the book, 
	they were all put in Slytherin, the home of the evil
	Voldemort; the way out, they were taught, could only come
	from following what God teaches. "I have never seen 
	children so excited about a church event, just absolutely
	mesmerized," Williams says. And what did they learn from
	it all? "No one can do miracles but God," says Abigail
	Haggerty, 5. "It showed how Harry Potter's mom sacrificed
	her life for Harry, as God sacrificed his life for us,"
	says America Copeland, 9.
	---------------------------------------------------------
	Time, June 23, 2003, pages 66-67.
	By Nancy Gibbs; with reporting by Amy Bonesteel/Atlanta,
	Cathy Booth Thomas/Dallas, Amanda Bower/Albany, Harlene
	Ellin/Chicago, Rita Healy/Denver, Broward Liston/Orlando,
	Jeanne McDowell/Los Angeles, Betsy Rubiner/Des Moines,
	and Andrea Sachs/New York.
	=========================================================

some see more than the demonic in the Potter series.

peace be with you!

elendraug
   SPEW! SPEW! SPEW! -------------------------- lifetime member
   yronwode.com@nagasiva

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50040314 vii om

peace be with you, my kin!

"selina" :
#> Hi. I'm Selina and I have a question. I heard that Harry Potter story
#> books/movies are demonic. Is it true? Any prove or evidence?

nux@blueyonder.co.uk (David):
# ANYTHING that says that witchcraft/magic/divination is ok is demonic,
# whether it comes in the from of a "harmless childrens story" or a
# another persons words. 

then by this criteria the Harry Potter stories are demonic, yes.

# And anything that says there is such a thing as white magic is
# demonic.

the Harry Potter series doesn't really talk about "black magic"
and "white magic". its premises are that certain malevolent
spells are advanced subjects of study (like complex machines
or the use of weaponry) and therefore instruction should wait 
until the wizards are more mature so as to handle the 
responsibility that comes with the instruction. this is being
argued about during the course of the series as the "Defense
Against the Dark Arts" instructor position yearly changes hands.

therefore by this latter criteria, the Potter Books are not demonic.

again, these criteria are fundamentalist and unrelated to the
conventional associations in media and cosmologies the world
round that pertains to demons (I don't recall any in the
Potter books, or mention of Satan or even of any deity).
corrections welcomed!

peace be with you!

elendraug
     SPEW!  SPEW!  SPEW!  ----  Dobby Did It So Can You!
     yronwode.com@nagasiva