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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
From: David R. Jones 
Subject: Re: Discussions About Enochian Magic (Rudiments, Paradigms, Components)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:27:13 -0700

>Wrong. Your assupmtion is based on the 12 houses of Israel the Governors
>assume in Universal direction in Liber Scientæ.

It's not my assumption it's Agrippa's which Dee clearly applies to the
diagrams in Sl. 3191 (cf. James 103) where an application of this
principle clarifies these diagrams fully.  Beyond that if you can
dispute the logic in http://tinyurl.com/59gq8 please have at it, it
ain't Pat's anyway.  I explicitly point out the directions aren't
universal so I'm sure what you are actually talking about.  My good
friend the Satyr understands this even if you don't
http://satyrikon.org/0403.html

>In point of fact the Great Table houses the elemental, zodical and
>planeteray 

Maybe, but this is a Golden Dawn assumption and not fully born out by
the Spirit Actions.  All I can say is that it appears you don't even
have a modicum of understanding of the basic of Renaissance Astrology
and I would direct you to Yate's The Theatre of the World, Rosicrucian
Enlightenment and Giordano Bruno & the Hermetic Tradition as well as
Dee's own Propaedeumata Aphoristica published as Dee on Astronomy
translated by Wayne Shumaker. 

>without mentioning the Governors or Aires.

Huh?  The Governor are directly tied to the Great Table via their
Symmetrical Characters (again cf. James 103-116 where this is made
obvious).

>Yours is a basic, armchair understanding assumed from any numer of Usenet
>persoanlities over the years. 

I have never had multiple usenet personalities (you are projecting
again).  As for being armchair, that is so laughable given Satyr's
tiny accounting of my workings
(http://www.biroco.com/kaos/kaos14.html).  I have posted numerous
actual working to the net over the years and multiple working partners
(Keith 418 for instance) have discussed practical details so your
assertion is pretty much false on its face.  Where is some evidence
that you have anything but an "armchair' understanding.  Your
statements here and elsewhere clearly indicate you have never made the
correlation between the theory and the work.  

>The above is Pat Pat Zalewski's understanding
>whom you elect not to credit, for but one example. I

Actually I presented this long before Zalewski, and Zalewski's
diagrams are based on Golden Dawn values.  Mine are based on Dee's
diagrams compared to Agrippas scales which in fact they match and
which we know from Dee's own footnotes he was using.   

'm more than familiar
>with the material to spot-on others you you've ripped from in that article
>you published. Shall I continue, 'o Davy Jones?

Go for it so far none of your criticism has proved valid and if you
don't mind breaking your word with every post go for it.  Not one word
has turned into an awful lot of words; I have to ask if you have as
much trouble with counting as you seem to have understanding what the
words you say mean.



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From: David R. Jones 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: Enochian Basics
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:59:30 -0700
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It's progressive, if you don't understand algebra you won't understand
calculus.  The whole of the Golden Dawn system in the outer was
prepatory training for their inner form of Enochian.  If you won't
read the basic books then you won't understand, but it's your choice
don't blame us who have gone to the trouble of mastering what we
consider basic in order to begin to understand it.  All systems have
basic jargon and fundamental paradigms, to the outsider what they are
saying sounds like gibberish.

On 21 Jul 2004 22:43:40 GMT, Alexander Mulligan
 wrote:

>In alt.magick, David R Jones wrote:
>> A hodgepodge of stolen goods and misinformation.  The demons are not
>> by the way right to left necessarily cf James 127 and 128 for but one
>> example of this error of which there are many in this essay
>
>It's really clear now why I can't get a straight answer about Enochian.
>
>None if its practicioners can even agree on the basics.
>
>What a joke.
>
>
>[....]


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From: David R. Jones 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: Discussions About Magic (Rudiments, Paradigms, Components)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:24:04 -0700
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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:11:03 GMT, "Asiya"
 wrote:

>"David R. Jones"  wrote in message
>news:n9qmf0hf54tpv04nk8s3kduk1mroh0fqdo@4ax.com...
>>
>> http://www.hermetic.com/enochia/system_enochian_magick_1.html
>
>Thanks for posting this link (and writing the article). That's the first
>succinct exposition I've read regarding the structure of the Enochian
>system. What does one do with Enochian magick, besides scrying? I've
>read portions of the Vision and the Voice, which is of course rich in
>its symbolism. I'm just wondering about practical employment.

Geoffrey James Enochian Evocation/Magick gives a good model of how the
Watchtower entities are applied to mundane practice and how the
Heptarchia similarly functions in relationship to the Sigillum.  In
practice there is a direct correlation in both cases between the
metasystem Aires over Watchtowers and Sigillum over Heptarchia and I
conjure both interactively, as a means of attaining to higher entities
and godhead and using that contact to cause mundane change in the
Universe.  The practice itself is a bit complex, but to give but one
example.  The symmetrical figures otherwise known as the sigils of the
governors are insribed in the Watchtowers by calling as supplicating
the watchtower entities whose names are portions of those governors
one formulates the mundane basis of said governors and tunes oneself
into their wavelength so to speak.  Having done this you can use them
as guides and gatekeepers and communicate directly with them in the
Aires with which they are associated.  Once the Aire itself has passed
you can reformulate the Watchtower entities giving them the power and
authority to do whatever mundane tasks you have assigned to them.


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From: David R. Jones 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: Discussions About Magic (Rudiments, Paradigms, Components)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:50:42 -0700
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>Oh, evocation.

Correct though there can be an interaction at numerous levels where
you invoke one to control/evoke something/things else.  The cross
entities for instance serve this purpose via the INRI formula.  I
think Cernau's method (cf Blanchard's Scotch (sic) Rite Masonry
Illustrated:  2 vols. Chicago: Ezra A. Cook), is the clearest on this
(though Crowley in places I am not at liberty to discuss has an
amusing and effective technique for exploiting this formula) lest of
course one is brave enough to look at primitive Christianity via say
Crossan, Ehrman, Schweizer, Funk etc.  In any case probably not useful
without at least a smattering of Greek and Aramaic.  This whole method
is the point of the 5=6 formula in the GD, and though I am not
knocking their peculiar form of self identification with Christ, there
are other approaches to the problem.  Which is why, all other issues
aside, is why I like initiatory organization; because they imprint
upon the psyche and soma certain magikal formuae that can then be
applied.  Outside of initiation I don't believe this can fully be
understood.  



On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:23:29 GMT, "Asiya"
 wrote:

>"David R. Jones"  wrote in message
>news:aie1g0loe1tstj279alcn0n3n0ms5bk95d@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:11:03 GMT, "Asiya"
>>  wrote:
>> >"David R. Jones"  wrote in message
>> >news:n9qmf0hf54tpv04nk8s3kduk1mroh0fqdo@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >> http://www.hermetic.com/enochia/system_enochian_magick_1.html
>> >
>> >Thanks for posting this link (and writing the article). That's the
>first
>> >succinct exposition I've read regarding the structure of the Enochian
>> >system. What does one do with Enochian magick, besides scrying? I've
>> >read portions of the Vision and the Voice, which is of course rich in
>> >its symbolism. I'm just wondering about practical employment.
>>
>> Geoffrey James Enochian Evocation/Magick gives a good model of how the
>> Watchtower entities are applied to mundane practice and how the
>> Heptarchia similarly functions in relationship to the Sigillum.  In
>> practice there is a direct correlation in both cases between the
>> metasystem Aires over Watchtowers and Sigillum over Heptarchia and I
>> conjure both interactively, as a means of attaining to higher entities
>> and godhead and using that contact to cause mundane change in the
>> Universe.  The practice itself is a bit complex, but to give but one
>> example.  The symmetrical figures otherwise known as the sigils of the
>> governors are insribed in the Watchtowers by calling as supplicating
>> the watchtower entities whose names are portions of those governors
>> one formulates the mundane basis of said governors and tunes oneself
>> into their wavelength so to speak.  Having done this you can use them
>> as guides and gatekeepers and communicate directly with them in the
>> Aires with which they are associated.  Once the Aire itself has passed
>> you can reformulate the Watchtower entities giving them the power and
>> authority to do whatever mundane tasks you have assigned to them.
>



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From: David R. Jones 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: Enochian Magick Revisited
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:04:10 -0700
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Thelema

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:14:54 GMT, catherine yronwode
 wrote:

>"David R. Jones" wrote:
>> 
>> Good luck. 
>
>Thanks. 
>
>Hey, i have a few more questions about Enochian magic. Maybe you can
>oblige me:
>
>Historical questions:
>
>You've heard the whole "Dee was as spy; it's all cypher code" theory.
>What do you think?

It is almost certain that Dee was collecting intelligence for
Walsingham, Elizabeth I's spymaster.  This is known as the Deacon
hypothesis from Richard Deacon's book on Dee.  As for extrapolating
this to assume that the Spirit Actions are cryptography is another
matter.  Dee was certainly aware of Trithemius cryptographic methods,
but both Dee and Trithemius seem to have been genuinely interested in
both cryptography and angel magick.  I am a peripheral member of the
Voynich study group and I fully understand Trithemius cryptographic
methods and so far as has been determined, by professional
cryptographers, there are no hidden political ciphers in the Spirit
Actions.

>So, if Kelly ran off with Dee's wife, what happened to Kelly's wife?

They swapped wives but both wives went back to their husbands after
the event.  Dee's wife, Jane, remained with him and eventually Kelly's
wife also returned to England, even though Kelly died in Bohemia.

>Who did Kelly kill and why?

Kelly was involved in a duel in Poland, it is unclear and doubtful if
anyone died as a result.

>What happened to the former Mrs. Dee after Kelly was jailed, or after
>he jumped or was pushed to his death?

See above.

>Why do you think Crowley claimed to be a reincarnation of Kelly? 

Good question without a good answer.  I myself have practice Liber
Thisarb and the results are profound so one can only imagine he
believed he actually had memories of the period and events.  It is
interesting to note that Jack Parsons also thought he was Kelly's
reincarnation, and it is difficult to reconcile both accounts.

>Practical questions:

>In your teaching and practice of Enochian magic, do you endorse or
>utilize Geoffrey James' recreations of the missing talismans using the
>Agrippa method of talisman construction? 

It's a method, and not one I apply exactly after the same fashion, but
in certain circumstances one has to produce talismans for certain
kinds of work, particularly the planetary magick associated with the
Sigillum Dei Aemeth.  I have techniques which I believe are truer to
both Dee and Agrippa and which are laid out in some detail in my work
on the Sigillum that I present in my seminars (contact me off
newsgroup and I will be happy to provide the notes, but their visual
nature precludes posting to usenet). but in any case the conjurerer is
left to the devises of their own ingenium.

>Do most Enochian magic practitioners of the current time work in pairs
>like Dee and Kelly or could one person who was an adequate scryer work alone?

It's a lot easier to have a scryer or conjurer.  I can do both but I
prefer to work in pairs or threesomes (with a scribe).  I prefer to
conjure but in my experience it is actually easier to come by decent
scryers than it is to get someone to be able to conjure according to
the exact formulae that I desire.

>Are there organizations devoted to this practice and if so are they
>dues-paying or hierarchical or initiatic in form -- or is Enochian
>magic  primarily a solitary or dyadic practice with folks of like
>interests sharing friendship on occasion?

Well I belong to numerous magikal and fraternal organizations and one
of their principle values is to provide and offer training for decent
assistants in such work as this.  Orders provide a baseline of trust
and ethics which allow the work to happen. One of my O.T.O. Lodge's
for instance is having an anniversary and we are going to spend a part
of our retreat scrying one of the Aires.  I know the people involved
and have to a large degree trained them.

>Thanks for any further information you might care to give.

I hope this answers some of your queries.  There is a lot to discuss
and so it probably better to answer your questions than to go off on
some tangent at this point.

Love Jones