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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.tarot,alt.divination,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
From: nocTifer 
Subject: Cross-Platform: Enochian Magic and Tarot
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:46:48 GMT

50040728 viii om

[A]:
#> What makes Enochian magick different or more effective 
#> than Qabalistic magick?

absent any differentiation based on the spellings, there is at
least a numerological resonance difference, as has been pointed
out here somewhat below. the 30-key aethyrs and the 32-key
paths don't exactly mesh-up, though sub-elements in each may 
be cross-matched between platforms (10/4 being primary and
the 10 sefirot able to key in, 3x, to the aethyrs).

[M]:
# ...What makes them different from eachother is the structure
# and underlying philosophies. They both provide maps of the 
# universe, but those maps are arranged according to different 
# perspectives of the universe.  

I'm not a practitioner of the former and have some rudimentary
study and exploration in the latter. let me guess and I'll be
happy to be corrected (A -- Enochian; B -- Qabalistic):

   Perspectives of the Universe

	A) Christian
	   angels from Judaism, prophet Enoch, 
           post-Hebrew supremacy (direct interaction)
	  -------------------------------------------
	   primary numerological factors: 49-30-7-4
	

	B) Hermetic (note: Cabalistic=Christian; Kabbalistic=Jewish)
	   post-Kabbalistic supremacy (discovered Keys lost by the
           Jews), sefirotic constructs inherited by Jews used, 
	   rudimentary cosmic and personal structures manipulated
	  -------------------------------------------
	   primary numerological factors: 32-22-10-4 

# In some ways and some areas, they correspond.  

this sounds like any two magical or divinatory systems. 
they may be related by resonance and discord, in a direct
comparison. one might ask whether Dee/Kelly had Cabalistic
ideas in mind when they were setting out their stone and 
scrying in communication with Enochian spirits (are they 
ascribable to apocryphal 'Fallen' angels? why is Dee even
bothering to *compare* the Enochian language with Hebrew?).

# In other ways they are completely different languages.

Enochian and Hebrew appear to be different languages. the
former appears primarily based on English, from what little
I know of it (being fairly directly substitution-based but
omitting vowels in a manner alike to Hebrew). that is, 
the former is patterned after and appears an attempt to 
replace the latter (for purpose of religious competition?).

#> Could it "supplement" understanding of Qabalah? 
#
# Personally, I wouldn't say Enochian magick supplements 
# understanding of Qabalah, because they are two different 
# systems.  

one might supplement the knowledge base of the other. do the
cosmological sets of either of them have barriers to the other?
i.e. do any of the cosmological presuppositions of those from
Dee to modern Enochian practioners today compete in any way,
or cross up in some way, with *any* Kabbalistic or post-
Kabbalistic (Cabalistic, Qabalistic, Qaballistic) cosmos?
are both better thought of as poetic or symbolic without any
direct knowledge espoused which might come into conflict?

# I would say that Enochian magick and/or 
# Qabalistic magick supplements the practitioner's 
# understanding of the universe.

presumably they each afford the practitioner's intention to
in some way manifest (thus qualifying them as magic, and in 
both these cases probably some kind of mystical or internal 
change is intended).

#> I seem to remember reading somewhere that the sub-divisions 
#> of the elements were a big deal in the Enochian system 
#> (Water of Fire, Earth of Fire, etc). Could you explore this 
#> area of Enochian thereby gaining greater personal 
#> experience with, say, the Tarot Court cards (and 
#> the corresponding Sepiroth and worlds)?

the Courts are a good hit, on account of the popular GD
notion put forward by Mathers that they might be a matrix
of elementary combination (4x4 elements). this appears 
to have been a selected option with greater value than
trying to identify 12 of the Courts and assigning some
zodiacal value to them, leaving 4 to fend for themselves
after the manner of so many post-Alliette cartomancers.

one might also focus on the Number cards, supposed to be 
the manifestation or development of the elements (often 
A=>10 or decimally-oriented x 4) in comparison with the 
16-fold structure of the tablets (also elemental).

a secondary consideration SHOULD be how Enochian tablet
structure meshes with what is called 'Geomancy' (system
using earth-holes or mounds and deriving one of 16
figures with which numerous cultures and magicians 
are quite familiar, popularized by Hermetics also).

# ...There is a direct correspondence between the court
# cards and the Enochian elemental tablet subdivisions, 
# which to me is much more useful for learning about the 
# court cards than the correspondence between the court 
# cards and the Qabalistic sephirot.

the Enochian tablets do break down into *crosses*
intervening quadratic sections of the whole, twice over.
this allows a 4x4 assignment, which is what [M] is
probably talking about here. does it matter that there
are also aspects *left out* in the tablets which lie
amidst or between these quadratic divisions? both are at
the overarching level with an equal-armed cross and at
the quadratic level with a double-wide vertical post
and a single-wide cross-beam -- interior to each of
these 'Court' assignments there is yet another level
which is divided unequally with a 'Christian' cross.

reflecting on GJames: why was another 'Great Table' 
constructed than that given by Raphael in 1587, April?

# However, I think it can be misleading or confusing 
# to say knowledge of the elemental subdivisions leads 
# to knowledge of the sephirot through the court cards.  
# That's like translating Chinese to English and then
# translating English to Russian. The final Russian 
# may have little to do with the original Chinese....



# ...Some interpretations of the Enochian system place 
# all of the elemental tablets 'in' Malkuth of Assiah - 
# they are elemental divisions and subdivisions of the 
# material world.... 

not only that, some Kabbalistic expositions recognize
only *3* elements, the fourth being somehow a combo 
of the other three (represented as within Malkuth?).
the same problem arises from those QBLs that recognize
and work with more than 4 (as the Plebeian quintessentials).

the problem pointed out here seems in part to be the 
issue of comparing correspondences which may not work
across the spectrums of discipline or intended aims.
the contextual 'spin' of how the tablets are seen as
described conceptually is somewhat different than how
the tarot Courts or Numbers, or other elemental-Keys,
are presented to those encountering the system.

making such comparisons is valuable nonetheless, since
then the rudiments to each system may be compared and
contrasted in details, allowing the novice to glimpse 
portions in common within a redaction of complexity.

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.com@nagasiva
nocTifer