a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Criteria Demonstrating Magic

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Criteria Demonstrating Magic (was Skepticism ...)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:01:47 GMT

50020619 AA7

can a demonstration of MAGIC take place in which are obtained
consistently repeatable RESULTS? 

what will be the nature of these results? the criteria would depend 
upon the terms 'magic' and 'results' and their intended meanings.

choreographing the demonstration is the first step in defining 
the terms in question, which is why this challenge was immediately
raised in response to a claim resembling the one above in recent
discussions in usenet.

fictions about the limitations of scientific enterprises in ability 
to explain a phenomenon are never supported with evidence. the
issue pertains to knowledge sets outside the predominantly believed.
this is supported in the well-regarded writings of philosophers of
science (widely-read in the skeptical community) such as Kuhn. bubbles
of knowledge may or may not intersect, but their referents will
inevitably overlap, causing social diffraction and alternatives to
arise to account for them (e.g. Newtonian and Einsteinian physics).

to say "this is scientifically inexplicable" is to maintain that
the listener or some other party ('the scientists') would find it
difficult or impossible to account for the data under consideration,
at its best use. this sort of thing is portrayed in horror stories
(e.g. Lovecraftian) all the time, and is one of the reasons why the
enthusiasts of ceremonial magic and role-playing intersected (see 
Black Moon Archives photocopies of Lovecraftian ceremonialism; or 
the writings of authors like Bertiaux, Grant, and many others; 
as well as expression of Chaos Magicians and Satanists).

if you're talking about "current scientific understanding", then it
probably means some academic conglomerate or investigatory institute.
there is no reason to presume something extraordinary until presented
evidence to support it. social spectrums of knowledge are buffers
against scallywags and rogue instructors. they are a kind of mean by
which it may be safe to steer (each of us varying as is our wont, 
from these). without a further elaboration on the understanding you
have implied, it is difficult to know your meaning.

Jack Dominey :
>...if you are claiming to do something "scientifically inexplicable",
>then you're pretty much asserting that nobody in the scientific realm
>understands why or how the result comes out.  

literally that they cannot account for it in their models. given
science-fiction-based imaginations and those which extend some depth
into microscopic and even macroscopic realms, why would the scientific
realm somehow be stymied into silence on the matter?

this is better seen as a challenge to those who are interested in 
demonstrations of magic to begin performing them for observation 
by the interested. one might consider Houdini and his interest in 
Spiritualism and seances as a comparable circumstance, where skeptics 
are concerned. its areas of focus (intentional change, repeatedly 
successful results) are very important to those interested in 
politics and games of chance, and should be easily funded where
convincingly presented. presentations following this post may be
archived for future discussion on demonstration criteria desired.
> It would be as though you could change the boiling point of pure 
> water at standard temp. and pressure via a ritual. 

some believe in this movie-magic, sure, especially as it becomes
exaggerated by virtue of ascribed effect and learning curve.

a       B
g      l         b
a     e        e
s    s       a
i   s      s
v  e     t
a d    !

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races