a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Christian Sources on Magick: Fortune

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick
From: (nocTifer)
Subject: Christian Sources on Magick: Fortune (Re: Getting started in Magick)
Date: 20 May 1997 15:50:44 -0700

49970520 AA1  Hail Satan! (cc'd to Thelema93-L, Silver Chalice)

>>>I do not recommend Fortune's books unless they taste good.  I am of a
>>>discernably non-Judeochristian slant and Fortune's books were icky to me.
>>>I should say that I have not yet tried to get past my repulsion and
>>>see if I could stomach the book mentioned above after a few gags.

 takes me to task for my unrestrained preferences/biases:
>I forgot to ask this earlier, Tagi....  How can you be repulsed
>by writings done by Christians, such as Dion Fortune, when Christianity
>borrows its pantheon from the the one your Order uses (the Egyptian 

it is not so much the pantheon by which I feel repulsed as by the Orphic
overtones of the cosmology therein.  that is, I actually *LIKE* many
Christian writings when the dualism doesn't become rampant and begin
to stoke the Purification, Judgement Day Rant.

I figure I'll need to explain the above, so here I go: 'Orphism' appears
to be a major contributing factor in the dualism and refinement-orientation
of modern Western religious.  this 'matter/spirit' and 'spirit/body'
dualistic split is something about which I have felt extreme loathing for
a long time, even though I have exposed myself severely to its psychologic
clutches and redirected its energies to alternative understandings (seeing
that it truly reflects the artificial split of consciousness into subject
and object as a sensate being, misunderstood in modern ignorance).

my preference is for monism or nondualism or polar systems of cosmology,
and in part this preference arises from seeing what I think is a very
real consequence of this dualism in the matter-hatred and nature-
destruction perpetrated by supposed 'Christians' and even many Neopagans.

the writers whose works gag me spend some degree of emphasis in their
language about this spirit/body dualism and concurrently emphasize an
'otherworldliness' or 'afterlife' rather than heaven-on-earth and
the perfection of the present.  

instead of making Mom (Gaia, whatever you want to call Her) into a 
Vehicle Through Which I'm Passing, and/or a Kleenex Which Will All 
Destroyed in The Great Conflagration Anyway, the Christian of my 
taste understands Biblical and esoteric teachings as METAPHORS, 
translates these into the PRESENT, and respects Mother Nature as 
a very important Teacher and Charge, whose care and/or desctruction 
we have in some measure assumed or been given as PARASITES.

>This makes no sense to me.  Unless of course you object to your
>Order's pantheon as well?

my Order (Caliphate OTO) doesn't have a pantheon.  any religious 
persuasion can be part of it.  if you are referring to the religion of
Thelema which subsumes a large portion of the Order's membership, then
these are more correctly described as Nuit, Hadit and Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
if you are talking about the Gnostic Catholic Church which my Order
houses and/or has combined itself with, then they might even be given
completely different names: CHAOS and BABALON.

>And please don't go blathering on about the xtians did this and that.
>Every denomination will do this and that when given the opportunity.

you don't know me very well. :>  my bias is not moral, it is strictly
prophylactic.  that is, I don't avoid certain texts because they are
'wrong', I do so because I consider them to be imbalancing to my mind,
dangerous to repeatedly engage, and generally harmful to myself and my
kin.  this is the case with *any* Orphic dualism or related extremity,
though I have found it most often in Christian teachings in my locale.

>An occultist such as Fortune is not a run-of-the-mill example of an
>xtian (and run-of-the mill examples of any denomination will be
>seen as lacking under the microscope).

contrast Fortune with William Gray, whose text (_Ladder of Lights_,
_Inner Traditions of Magic_, others) has blatant Christian undertones
while avoiding some of the idiocy typically trapping Christian mystics
like Fortune, by my recall.  or with Crowley, who was essentially
Christian in spirit while adversarial toward fundamentalism, anti-
sensuality, anti-corporeality, in his best moments.

I agree that her book _Mystical Qabalah_ is valuable to have on one's
reading list if one can stomach her.  if nothing else it has become
a classic through popularity in the ceremonial culture.  however, for
those like myself who consider her text overly transcendental and
dualistic, it is not recommended and most of her material on QBL can 
probably be found in less extreme sources.  I have been meaning to
give her book another look and have been looking for a cheap copy for
the library here, we have many of her books otherwise, yet haven't
found one.

>It also makes no sense to me that you admit you never even read
>the book you are trashing and trash it on the basis of it being
>written by an xtian.  I'm frankly surprised to see you of all
>people being so closed-minded.  Shame. Shame. :)

I've perused it in new and used bookstores before.  I was sufficiently
disgusted that I have opposed supporting its promulgation, challenging
those like yourself to defend it on some basis other than that it was
'recommended by people I trust'.  so here I go:

what does Fortune's book offer that one cannot find elsewhere?

is this book a better example of scholarship and written style
than her other works _Esoteric Orders and Their Works_ (eww!, yes
I've tried seriously to read that one and we have several copies
of it here in the library) or others she may have written?

     (emailed replies may be posted)  -------  join the AMT syncretism!!!
   see  ----------        call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!
 AAK! - Authorities Against Knowledge **  Knowledge is an enslaving illusion.

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races