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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.order,alt.ma
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Various: TOPY, Chaos Magick, Thelema
Date: 13 Sep 1997 13:12:44 -0700

49970904 aa2 Hail Satan!

JohnE:
# Perhaps some might find this discussion irrelevant to this list, but
# P-Orridge purported to be disseminating a quasi-thelemic message in spite
# of acting in a manner that was obnoxiously authoritarian. 

I had understood TOPY and Chaos Magick culture generally to owe a great deal
of its impetus to modern Thelemic sources (in particular Crowley and Austin 
Osman Spare, whose text has been spread far and wide by Kenneth Grant and on
the Internet -- one of my upcoming re-acquisition projects).  for quite a 
while there was an overlap between (c)OTO and TOPYna, for example, though 
I don't really know how far this extended (hello again, MaX!).

what I got out of my very minimal exposure to TOPY particularly was the 
encouragement to engage what conventional ceremonial magicians might call
the more 'adventurous' or 'dangerous' work, like blood rites, those that
involve piercings, tattooing, physical sexuality (maybe not even SAFE(r)
sex -- the Horror! :>), and BDSM.  I saw that the individuals I met were
often on the 'edge' of the Thelemic culture, testing out areas like those
of Qliphotic and Lovecraftian invocations or summonings.  this has been
true of a number of those who I know that have been associated with
Chaos Magick too, and contributed toward the impression I had that there
weren't really distinct lines (these being pioneering areas that were
simply too controversial to have penetrated the more conservative
community at least to an extent where it might be openly displayed as
part of the magical path and drifting lines of membership).

blessed beast!
_______________________________________________________________________________
nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/

===============================================================================

~From: Andrew Spitzer 

[slight omission]

As we evolve culturally, we are bound to spawn organizations that support
more individuality, and the "human potential" movement seems to dovetail
well with the magical one. Psychology being a fundamental building block of
effective magic, the two are obviously interlinked. Modern magical groups
often incorporate psychology and mysticism. Like it or not, there does seem
to be a relationship among Thelema, chaos magick, TOPY, Wicca, newage,
etc., etc., etc. One of the most obvious similarities is the creative use
of language, particularly variant spelling (archaic spelling and vocabulary
in Crowley's case, rhyming and rhythm patterns in the case of Wicca), to
both set their "domains" off from the mainstream and (hopefully) to force
the mind out of stagnant patterns.

ZAIN11 writes:
>Pan,
>
>What's all the banter about TOPY and P-Orridge. Why not start at P-Orridge
>list ?     Please.

As unpopular as the claim is, Thelema, TOPY, Kaos, Wicca, Satanism, Newage
swill, and many others, seem to have a common connection (or at least
appear to from the outside), not the least of which is exaltation of the
individual through various techniques of focusing/altering consciousness.
The key point is that they all tend to (ostensibly) take the power away
from leaders/priestcast and put it in the hands of individuals, which to me
is the core of Thelema.  We could all learn a lot from each other if we
could stop being so self righteous about our "superior" traditions and such
(not a direct stab at you, frater -- I see an awful lot of "my crazy shit
is better than your crazy shit" everywhere).

[nigris]/333 writes:
>I had understood TOPY and Chaos Magick culture generally to owe a great deal
>of its impetus to modern Thelemic sources (in particular Crowley and Austin 
>Osman Spare, whose text has been spread far and wide by Kenneth Grant and on
>the Internet -- one of my upcoming re-acquisition projects).  for quite a 
>while there was an overlap between (c)OTO and TOPYna, for example, though 
>I don't really know how far this extended (hello again, MaX!).

Certainly, the impact is obvious, if not in direct relation to Liber AL,
then at least in relation to debt to Crowley's style and content. Peter
Carroll seems to have "split the difference" between Crowley and Spare in
_Liber Kaos_. But even Carroll bases his system on unfounded and unprovable
assumptions: "all mater emits ether", and so on, while simultaneously
slagging dogmatism. Nonetheless, I feel that Kaos Magick has noble
contributions to make to solitary-style magic, and therefore to Thelema.

Now granted, Kaos is not the same as TOPY (which a certain Frater I know
once referred to as the "make a wish and cum" school of magick), but there
seems to be a similar link via roots in Crowley and Spare. Although they do
use the language trick extensively, as another on the list has pointed out
they fall into the same stagnation trap by simply aping GP-orriges litany
rather than using language in more creative ways. I think they could use a
little trip down Chomsky Lane. A little Joyce might do some good, too.

[nigris]/333 again:
>what I got out of my very minimal exposure to TOPY particularly was the 
>encouragement to engage what conventional ceremonial magicians might call
>the more 'adventurous' or 'dangerous' work, like blood rites, those that
>involve piercings, tattooing, physical sexuality (maybe not even SAFE(r)
>sex -- the Horror! :>), and BDSM.

This fascinates me, although I am not particularly drawn to BDSM. With few
exceptions, most of those that I know who have gone deep into "the
lifestyle" seem to have little or no consideration for things like informed
consent and personal boundaries of others, which I consider to be anathema
to Thelema. Perhaps I've been hanging out with the wrong freaks (recently,
Ive met a few who do not seem to have this attitude, but they have been
the rare exception). To me, Thelema is strictly a "hands off" philosophy,
ala Liber OZ. Do your will, just don't do it on me.

Now where I have been impressed is with those who have chosen to embrace
more socially unaccepted lifestyles, the so-called "dangerous" work of
sexuality, particularly those of the polyamorous bend, sexual mages (the
ones who do it rather than just talk about it), or others who have made
socially unpopular sexual choices in pursuit of higher ideals. To delve
into at least less charted, if not totally uncharted waters in order to do
one's will, regardless of how it will affect one's social standing is, in
my opinion, a grand Thelemic act. This is true magickal initiation: to
start a process that results in great changes in accord with one's will,
concerning issues and situations that hit deep to the core of personality
and consciousness. Sexuality is just such a realm. If it goes against the
cultural grain, so be it.

I would love to see some written material on the subject from someone who
approached it from a largely Thelemic/magickal perspective.

  --Andrew
  iopan@ix.netcom.com
  http://www.netcom.com/~iopan
  http://www.topanga.net/iopan

EOF
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