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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi
From: Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
Subject: Re: Gnome on Goetia, compiled
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:11:58 GMT

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:22:19 GMT, "David Cantu" 
wrote:

>"catherine yronwode"  wrote in message
>news:3BF6EE85.36AD@luckymojo.com...
>> Due to the mixture of fluff and shards surrounding discussions of magick
>> in usenet, i found it valuable to compile and edit together (for brevity
>> and clarity) a couple of recent posts by Poke Runyon on how his system
>> of Goetic evocation differs from those of Steve Savedow and Lon Milo
>> DuQuette. Thanks to Chris for asking the question.
>>
>
>Also pointed out were the great differences in how they view traditional
>protection elements, such as charging and maintaining the integrity of a
>circle: Savedow is absolutely insistent on there being no connection
>whatsoever between the protective circle and the triangle of art whereas
>Poke doesn't give it any importance at all.

*******Not true. In O.T.A. practice, and in *Dark Mirror of Magick*
The Triangle is always outside the Circle. Only the mundane easel legs
are inside. The Triangle is bordered with Holy Names and  the three
syllables of Mi Ch Ael. ******

>Also, the differences in opinion on what Goetic evocation is "good for".  In
>fact there is some real confusion here. 

*****Only because you refuse to recognize philosophical monist and
Jungian conceptions.******

>In many ways, Poke treats the
>Goetic spirits as psychological projections of the magician, the standard
>"psychological" model of magick, and it could even be argued that nothing
>ever enters the triangle of art at all, aside from normal light reflections
>from the surroundings.  This would then justify the non-importance played by
>the crossing of the circle and connections between the circle and triangle
>of art.

****Wrong again. We (in keeping with Hermetic philosophy BTW) hold
that achetypes in the Collective Unconscious have a universal analog
and even a transpersonal connection (As Above, So
Below--Microcosm/Macrocosm, remember?) This is clearly explained in
*The Book of Solomon's Magick* which you have---David, I'm going stop
short of calling you a premeditated  liar in this case, but you do
seem to be coming close. Please be careful. *******

>On the other hand, Poke is also claiming a real communication of information
>that should not have been accessible to Frater Solomon's consciousness, and
>this seems to contradict the psychological model and move into the "spirits
>are entities" model.  

******Not in Jungian or Hermetic, or Tibetan tantric terms.******

>But in that model the circle and triangle are kept
>separate, even by advanced magicians, to avoid such contaminations as
>"possession".  In actual fact, based on the info given in Poke's tape,
>Frater Solomon is Not that advanced in years, where magick is concerned, as
>I recall without looking it up, he had about 2 or 3 years of training
>total - not really what I would call an advanced student, even if a quick
>learner.

******You've admitted that your Goetia experiment caused you far more
mental distress than Frater Solomon or I have yet to experience, (and
I've been doing it, and teaching it for 32 years!) so perhaps we were
doing something right, and you were doing something wrong? But more
probably (IMO) you never should have embarked on these experiments in
the first place.******

>It then becomes questionable as to how the Vassago information was received.
>In an evocation, as I have understood it, the information seems to come into
>the receiver from outside, i.e., the receiver "sees" the spirit and "hears"
>its voice.  On the other hand, what Solomon describes in the pre-interviews
>on the video seems closer to channeling the information, which requires a
>type of inner contact in which the receiver speaks the spirit's will, a type
>of trance/possession.

******That is essentially true. If you can't understand that concept,
then you are (IMO) so credulous and unsophisticated that even Carlos
Castenada's "Don Juan" would never have taken you on as student.
******
>I'm sure Poke will clarify, though I would rather hear the direct testimony
>of Solomon, but what appears in the video SEEMS closer to the later state of
>consciousness than the former.  Poke has said that Mike can answer in his
>own voice and with his own will at any time, but what we see in the video
>seems to be Mike speaking with the voice and will of Vassago.

****Wrong again. Frater Solomon quite frankly and rationally 
discusses his impressions of the magical trance state in his
interviews with Wayne Darwen. ******

>There is also a complete acceptance of the fact that it is Vassago and that
>he speaks true even though he shows up very fast and without surprises in
>the evocation, something Poke has explained as being due to repeated
>conjuring of this same spirit over time and Solomon's pre-preparations for
>the contact.  By the way, this also raises questions about other information
>gained from Vassago in the past and how it relates to the present prophecy.
>As I said before, the video, book and technique are workable and valuable,
>but should have these things clarified here.  

*******First: In our method of Goetic evocation, we very seldom go
more than three---and often no more than two -- repetitions  of the
first conjuration before welcoming the spirit. In *Dark Mirror* I did
one and one half repetitions, which is typical with experienced
operators and receivers. You are confusing our method with the "Do it
the hard way" free-form visualization marathons of operators like
Steve Savedow (whom I respect, but do not try to emulate).******

Gnome d Plume
http://members.aol.com/CHSOTA/dmirror.html

>This is true even if it is all
>spelled out in the book...because we are now in the environs of a newsgroup
>where only a few have access to the described works.
>
>David
>
>
>> cat
>>
>> ----
>>
>> In alt.magick on Fri, 16 Nov 2001, "Chris"  wrote:
>>
>> > I am very interested in Steve Savedow's methods [of Goetic
>> > evocation]. I have never come across any of his material and would
>> > like to learn about it.
>> >
>> > I was [...] under the impression that other than the dark mirror
>> > facial reflection mirror method, Gnome was staying very true to the
>> > "pure" goetia format.
>> >
>> > What about Lon Duquette's mehtods?
>> >
>> > [...] can someone give me a quick summary of the
>> > differences between the systems [of modern Goetic evocation] ?
>>
>> Carroll "Poke" Runyon (Gnomedplume@aol.com) replied:
>>
>> I've discussed the methods and books of Maestroes Savedow and DuQuette
>> often on the news group. Steve's book is called *Goetic Evocation*
>> published by Escathon and available from amazon. Lon's books
>>  *My Life with the Spirits* and *Angels, Gods and Demons of the New
>> Millennium* are from Weiser also available from amazon.
>>
>> Savedow uses a free form visualization method employing a flat triangle
>> over which the spirit must be, or become, visualized after intense,
>> extensive and exhaustive conjurations -- in other words doing it the
>> hard way. He sees all Goetia "demons" as Klippothic (not so stated in
>> the Lemegeton) and therefore evil. Some people get confused and think he
>> summons them in a "black box" but actually this is just the burning box
>> for the Curse of Chains.
>>
>> Savedow is a strict medievalist who assumes a direct Hebrew origin for
>> the Goetia (quite possible BTW) and operates on that premise. He ignores
>> the injunction to "Appear in fair and human form" and they all show
>> looking like gargoyles -- but then I don't use The Curse of Chains, so
>> we all have our modifications.
>>
>> Lon [Duquette's system] seems to be somewhere between [my] O.T.A. and
>> Savedow. He likes most of the Goetia spirits ("Demons are our Friends!")
>> but he does coerce them more than we do at times, and he uses more of a
>> free form visualization than a specific conjuration device such as a
>> mirror or a crystal.
>>
>> You should read the books of these modern masters.
>>
>> I have always made it clear that I was an "innovator;" that I was
>> bringing "Ancient Ceremonial Magick into the 21st Century" as we say in
>> [the O.T.A.] by-line. As [is stated in] my *Book of Solomon's Magick* I
>> didn't have an extensive background in traditional Western magick when I
>> had my transformational vision in 1969 as a result of a nearly terminal
>> illness, in which I went temporarily "mad". I did know about voodoo,
>> Tibetan tantra, Carl Jung and hypnosis. From those elements, and Richard
>> Cavendish's *The Black Arts*, plus Paul Christian's *History and
>> Practice of Magic* (containing the French version of Crata Repoa),
>> Arthur Waite's *Book of Ceremonial Magic* and Barrett's *Magus* the
>> O.T.A. was born.
>>
>> This is galling to some folks who have spent years in AMORC, OTO or GD,
>> and were consequently locked into those Victorian models. I broke out of
>> the "nine dots" and in the process I made the old romantic Arabian
>> Nights magick (which the GD was incapable of) actually work!  When we
>> got started back in 1970 Nelson and I used to say: "Hey, you guys, we
>> really do it," and we did (and we still do). We created the new Goetia
>> revival because our methods actually worked. You don't have to take my
>> word for it. Look at Don Kraig's *Modern Magick.* It is the most popular
>> practical manual on the subject in modern times--and his Goetia method
>> is derived from the O.T.A. original.
>>
>> I like and respect Maestro Steve Savedow, and I think his work
>> is most valuable--in fact essential! I don't think anyone who is
>> interested in a serious practice of Solomonic Magick should ever
>> embark on that course without reading both his book and mine, and of
>> course the wonderful works of Maestro Lon Milo Duquette, especially
>> *My Life With The Spirits.*
>>
>> Together these books prove beyond a doubt that supreme principle of
>> Hermetic philosophy: "As Above, so Below," to which I would add: "As
>> within, so Without."
>>
>> Gnome d Plume
>