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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.christnet.demonology From: bloodofenoch@goddamnfruit.com (Andralphus) Subject: Re: 'Real' vs. 'Fake' Grimoires (was necronomicon) Date: 6 Apr 2002 06:36:46 -0800 ny'rl'th't'pwrote in message news: ... > bloodofenoch@goddamnfruit.com (Andralphus): > >bufferm4n@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<5cc56cfe.0203301948.b4f09c6@posting.google.com>... Thanks for the reply, nagasive/nyarlathotep. > > The Simon Necronomicon takes a bunch of stuff from classical ritual > > magick, dumbs it down, and paints a veneer of Sumerian mythology over > > it. > > some problem with doing this? lots of Llewellyn books are dumber and > less valuable. why cap on the Simonomicon? you have a beef with him? Okay, let me phrase the beef thus: the Simon book is no worse than a lot of Llewellyn stuff. I'd say that's damning by faint praise. ;) > > ... why bother with a thrown-together literary hoax > > is it one? is it your impression that the Simonomicon pretends to be > something that it is not? why, if so? It does. Read the intro. > > when you can go to the original? > > HPL? LOL Touche'. > > Try "Aleister Crowley's Illustrated Goetia" or "The Enochian World > > of Aleister Crowley" by Lon Milo Duquette. Or "The Book of > > Solomon's Magick" by C.R. Runyon. > > not quite the puzzle or entertainment. > > > The Goetic and Enochian systems have evolved, been tested, > > the Goetia reads like a third-grader constructed its puny directory > from amongst 10-15 mix-n-match 'characters' of 'demons'. it lacks > creativity beyond the wild imagination of the author at points > where describing the spirits. it is not my impression that this > text is more than an amusement amongst magicians I think the Goetia is an extremely valuable exercise, especially for GD style ceremonial magicians (like myself, more or less). The Goets are part of a completely different paradigm than the angels and elementals you normally work with in CM, and can jolt you out too-comfortable ways of seeing and dealing with the world. "Now hear a plain fact: Swedenborg has not written one new truth: Now hear another: he heas written all the old falsehoods. "And now hear the reason. He conversed with Angels who are all religious, & conversed not with Devils who hate all religion, for he was incapable thro' his conceited notions." - Blake, Marriage of Heaven and Hell. > where it fails to > become a mechanism by which the clever psycho-analyst attempts to > get in touch with their deep mind... I hate this justification for the Goetia. There are plenty of much safer ways of getting in touch with 'the deep mind'. Ultimately the only justification can be fun. > > and successfully worked by generations of magicians. > > They work, and they work well. > > how can you tell? success stories? to what end? are there people > winning lotteries after having consulted with treasure-finding > goetic demons? not of which I am aware. I don't generally use the Goets to achieve material results. My success stories are simply the times I've talked with demons. > > The Simonomicon was slapped together haphazardly in order > > to sell books, and not well thought out as a system for working. > > why were the Goetic documents created? can you be so sure of their > original intent and method? This is a good point. I won't pretend that the Goetia does not have a dodgy past. It does. I guess what it comes down to is that I personally would have a hard time taking the Necronomicon seriously as a working magickal system, knowing it to be an invention of a pulp science fiction writer. That may just be me, but I suspect not. > >> does it have any practical value? do the spells work? > > > > If you don't know any better, yes. > > toward what end? as has been said in these magical forms, if you > believe that intention or faith is all that is truly required, > then how will you determine an "authoritative" grimoire?? in > fact, there is no such thing outside what the magician finds so > convincing, given the make-believe-and-it-turns-real paradigm. The other thing that makes me recommend Goetia and Enochian is that they have a tradition behind them: their existence depends on more than the first section of the Lemegeton and Dee's diaries. They have been developed and refined; new things have been added (like Crowley's Bornless Invocation or Runyon's mirror). Other things have been de-emphasized and gradually slipped away from common usage (like some of the more elaborate equipment; the use of the demons for treasure hunting). These refinements have made the system more workable. Therefore I recommend it. As AgnosticGnostic pointed out, this is a hopelessly retrograde and conservative position, and if everyone followed it there would be nothing new or interesting in magick. I suppose this is the case, but I'm not particularly inclined to reinvent the wheel every time I do a magickal working. There's also new and interesting in the sense of exterior trappings and new and interesting in terms of experience. I (more or less) use the standard-form Goetic conjurations; in that sense nothing new or interesting is happening. But when Asmoday appears to me, I'm fairly certain that it's a much different Asmoday than ever appeared to anyone else before. That is new and interesting, to me at least. Have a good day, - Andralphus
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