THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick,alt.mythology
From: Gr3mlin@hotmail.com (Gremlin)
Subject: Re: Physical Manifestation in Goetic Evocation and Mystical Results
Date: 5 Nov 2003 10:17:45 -0800

nocTifer  wrote in message news:...
> 50031104 viii om 
> 
> Gr3mlin@hotmail.com (Gremlin):
> # I and those I know have witnessed physical forms of 
> # spirits together. 
> 
> what did they look like?
> 
Not to say too much but the apeared as manifestations of a natural
force of nature.

> # Not to mention what they look like, but to say I myself 
> # haven't seen human forms.  
> 
> why weren't you mentioning what they looked like?
> 
I don't like to talk about the spirits more than I have to.  Their
conspirtorial whispers are best left unspoken.

> # I know folks who have seen spirits in the human form,
> # sometimes even feeling people they knew who passed on physicaly.  
> # I haven't ever come in contact with evil spirits in a physical 
> # form....
> 
> is there some fundamental difference between evil spirits and good
> ones? are the evil ones more powerful, or more centrally-located in
> some other dimension or something, like in Asprin's and other books
> of fiction?
> 
Spirits are not gods.  They can make mistakes too, fail sometimes, and
do things not normal for their character.  The fundemental differance
between a good spirit and an evil spirit is that evil spirits have a
disposition towards doing things that are wrong.

> # ...you can
> # think of evil in many different ways and demons in a much broader
> # fashion.  Goetic demons are on thing, but demons in general extend far
> # beyond.  No evil spirit has any power over you unless you let them. 
> 
> then why are these magicians always outfitting themselves in massive
> protection, garb, circles on the ground, locating the summoned demon
> in a particular container, etc.? it sounds like risky hi-tech stuff.
> 

I just speak from experience, and what I've been taught.  Imho though,
magicians do all of that because they would like to give power to evil
spirits or believe that the evil spirits do have power.

> # There are Grey aliens with their space ships, there are possesed
> # people who will stalk and kill you, there are even natural
> # manifestations of evil in the form of a storm, or an animal.  
> 
> you expect us to believe in all this, though?
> 
If you believe then you do not need my convincing, and if you do not
believe then no evidence will be enough.

> # Some even have there own personal demons that take on the form 
> # of problems in themselves or their lives.  
> 
> right, metaphorical ones. these are big with rationalists.
> 
> # ...what do demons look like to you?  
> 
> I don't think I ever met one. the Queen of Demons is ambiguously
> named and I don't know if, like Socrates was the King of Sophists,
> She is the Queen *and* a Demon, or if She just is supposed to rule
> them. usually the contention is the latter, of course, especially
> from those who find in Her the Mother Goddess. dunno 'bout that,
> however. Her lapping blood, battlefield dance with body parts is
> one I've seen numerous times, though I've never been on such a
> battlefield and She was not killing and slurping when I met Her. 
> 
> when visiting with a 'demon' once I didn't have the impression that
> I was going to see anything unusual, just that our experiences
> would coincide for a period, and that we might communicate and/or
> feel in commonality. the spirit, Beelzebuth, was the General of the
> Armies of Darkness, Satan's Legions, whose interests I was seeking
> to sway toward the defense of Satan (wild nature). at one point 
> during the rite I got the definite sense of glee in destruction 
> that reflected images in my mind of an infernal, flame-devil being,
> but I presumed this a function of my imagination and the fact that
> a red Sabbatic Goat candle was directly involved with the experience.
> 
> that said, I'm not sure that this was any kind of 'evil spirit',
> except perhaps in the minds of those who characterize wild beings
> as 'evil'. I understood it as related to goetia, but as I was
> invoking, how should I have become convinced of their evilness?
> if they can't manifest, does that confirm that they are evil or
> merely that they are shy? at some point it becomes like trying
> to tell if a human being "is evil". not that I tend to apply
> this term to people at all, usually just to acts ('the acts
> make the spirit'?).
> 
> in fiction (which I study as pertains to Satan, devils, demons,
> etc., etc.), they make people do crazy things, are usually very
> horrible to experience, or at least a coersion of wills is 
> involved (most of them are in *horror* films, the scary 
> ones). Asprin be damned, they aren't usually portrayed as 
> 'dee-mon-shun-al travellers'. :>
> 

Evil spirits are not nature spirits, there is a big differance in my
mind.  Nature is a very good sacred thing, evil is not.  Even snakes
which are a evil aspect of nature are not dangerous to humans most of
the time.  It is only if you carelessly stumble into a snakes domain
that it will deffend itself.  Nature does of course have a light side
and a dark side.  Winter can be a rough time for people who live in
nature, but when spring comes around we feel its blessings.  Night
time can be a dangerous and confusing place but when the dawn rises
with the sun we can once again see.  Perhaps you can relate this to
evil bit it is a part of a sacred natural cycle which is necesary for
our survival.  Evil is seperate from this natural cycle which God
created.  Evil is a rebellion from the natural cycle, evil is when we
abandon nature and turn to the gods of technology.  I imagine demons
much the way Giger illistrates them.  Good is when we live in harmony
with nature, respecting it like ourselves.  We eat from nature to
suriveve but we do it in a good way, what we eat understands.  We
understand too when we die, it is time to make a sacrafice for nature.

> # Do you imagine them to be red with pitchforks and little horns?  
> 
> oh if we're talking about imagination, demons seem to like that
> set sure. but that's just a popular pick of a spectrum of varying
> theriomorphic (beast-shaped) entities. the really amazing devils
> have faces all over their bodies, can shape-change, and start to
> fade into their background or extrude strange appendages, so's a 
> warp of reality twists the mind. kinda like that pic of aziel at 
> the TOKUS website:
> 
> 	http://www.satanservice.org/aziel.gif
> 
> in 'Fallen', for a counter-example. there was never any real 
> appearance of the demon who was its main character. it just 
> shifted possession from person to person.
> 
> # Or do you see a hole of darkness sucking all the light in?  
> 
> I've never been so solar-centered. photons are keen, but these
> dualistic metaphors where darkness is the bad thing, black is
> adversarial, etc., do try one's patience.
> 
> # You can give prety much anything a mental picture if you try 
> # hard enough, a form, a body.  
> 
> once a thing can so be named, usually it has some kind of 
> description which might be used to reconstruct such images.
> 
> # You can also give almost any mundane physical form a 
> # special spiritual signifigance.
> 
> sure, but is this just in your mind? or is it transpersonal?
> see, quite a few magicians posting to this forum appear to
> believe that everything is internal. it's all some kind of
> mystico-psychological self-integration. did *you* do your
> summonings for that reason? or for something else?
> 
I think that everything in nature really does have a spiritual
essence.  Why spirits have visited me has to do more with them than it
does with me I think.

> this issue also perturbs the discussion of spells. is the
> spell an internal event without external repercussion beyond
> what may be conveyed through sociological systems? or is it
> a personal rallying of emotion and verve that will assist an
> exertion which otherwise might achieve the same result, but
> *without the spell*? the contentions about this are amusing.
>
Hmmm  
> blessed beast!
> 
> nocTifer