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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.satanism,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia
From: boboroshi 
Subject: Goetia as Mysticism? Buddhism as Treasure-Finding! 
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:41:13 GMT

50021221 VII Solstice!!

"Gnome d Plume" :
>>> ...there is not a whole lot of difference between a Tibetan 
>>> Tantric Buddhist working through Vajrayogini, various 
>>> Malakalas, and other horrific entities (demons in every sense 
>>> of the word) on his way to enlightenment, and the modern 
>>> Goetia practitioner who uses his own reflection in the
>>> mastery of his own "demons."

same relation to the demons? i.e. control, dominate, and get
what you want out of them? most goetic material doesn't set
into cement the ownership of the demons (this is why there
is a 'directory' of them in what is called the Goetia). from
what I gather, the mystical use of goetic demons (i.e. where
they are seen as internal psychological elements to be
reconciled) is modern.

"Blue Rajah":
>> I don't think that's actually an apt comparison. Tibetan 
>> Buddhism is far more than the mere conjuring of spooks.  

Poke included that in his qualifications ("on his way to
enlightenment" vs. "in the mastery of his own 'demons.'), 
as Sir IF pointed out elsewhere. Poke has made it plain
that he doesn't believe in transpersonal demons. 

therefore 'conjuring of spooks' is more akin to how the usual
spiritualist or Solomonic practitioner might see what they 
are doing, but there is also a diversity of perspective in
the minds of the practicing Buddhists (compare the Chud rite
and the feeding of oneself *to* the demons, or hungry ghosts).

in fact this is the real issue underlying the argument between
you and with which Poke attempts to grapple by term-co-option:
establishing a subjective 'set' by which the practice may be
known. will it lead to "enlightenment" (whatever this means)
if the Buddhist doing all the above-mentioned things believes
it be a 'mere conjuring of spooks'? is there some evidence
that the Goetia is more than the prank of a renegade priest,
subsequently secured as a Bad Boy Badge by inverso-magicians
in the style of Black Masses and those with Devilish Pacts?
 
>> It's based on the teachings of Buddhism, which point the 
>> way to Enlightenment, which is certainly to be considered 
>> a profound personal transformation.

one might hope so. there might be an interaction, and maybe 
a feeding. religion has a way of disappointing though, and
it can fail miserably to yield reliable results.

>> The Goetia, on the other hand, merely apes the evocatory 
>> practices of Tibetan Buddhism 

it does? my impression is that the rites goetic were more
Middle Eastern, pseudo-Jewish Christian (quasi-Solomonic).

>> without even considering the underlying spiritual insights 
>> of its teachings.

sure. the usual description of goetic evocation pertains to
levelling of spiritual firepower against a potentially worthy
spiritual captive whose skills and treasure one might plunder.
goetic magicians are like pirates or mafioso extortionists 
prior to any modern mystical approaches, when taken seriously.

>>> Of course they are Asiatic third-world people whose 
>>> spiritual practices deserve "respect" 

true.

>>> whereas we are middle class Americans who deserve to be 
>>> "debunked."

you mean the Tibetan Buddhist demon-summoning used to be 
for personal power and the extortion of weaklings for gain?
I doubt it.

>> Well, I think if you poll most middle class Americans, 
>> you probably won't find that they believe that the Goetia 
>> is an efficacious method of personal transformation in 
>> any positive sense.  If fact, a large percentage of them
>> might consider it the road to Hell.

there is a good reason for that. creating the Book of Evil
Spirits one might call up for conversation and extortion
was an edgey Work, despite its poor written quality. it in 
part depends upon a fantastic cosmology in which such beings
could be seen as historical or logically necessary, extant.
compare Simon's "Necronomicon" for equally trashy edginess.

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
> ...I am not an authority on Tibetan Tantric Buddhism....
> [but I know more about it than you do]
> ...The same applies to the modern practice and philosophy 
> of Goetia magick.... 

given that you are apparently fabricating modern Goetia
magick, as you call it, from fragments of the past and
innovative (crafted! lovely!) creations toward a mystical
character, it is hardly surprising that your Goetia magick 
resembles Buddhism, given your training in the latter. 

were you attempting to distinguish between modern goetic 
workings and those of the past? or did I misunderstand?

> [BR's] answer was a declaration of simplistic, popular 
> prejudices wrapped up as "facts" 

really? is there some historical precedent for the use of
the "Lesser Key of Solomon" as a mystical key? how far back 
does that practice extend? does it include the other 
grimoire(s) you're combining together to make a mystical 
ceremonial magick system? or did you make it up?

> ...try to give the impression that Western magicians 
> totally ignore ego transcendence. 

my impression wasn't this, but that, in conformance with
my admitted incomplete understanding of Goetia, that the
evil spirit directory was for terrestrial purposes, rather
than as any kind of mystical (that is, psychospiritual) aid. 

quite to the contrary, Hermetic magicians are some of the
more hopped up ego-transcenderizers, usually quite egotistic
about it too. often the term 'ego' takes on many different,
conflicting meanings within the text of Hermetic magicians:
a kind of collage of Freud, Jung, and Buddhist perspectives, 
all rolled together as if there was only one meaning. this
is sadly untrue, and there is much harm done in the charade.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
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