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To: thelema93-l now @egroups
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Goetic Spirits and Black Magick (was GOETIA/Black Magick ?)

49990730 IVom Hail Mot! 

correspondent A wrote:
# when one is conjuring, does one scry, and invoke or is it 
# always a two people job?

these are two possible configurations. 

the magician's skill, the complementarity of a ritual group, 
particular conditioning and preferences, and background 
experience all serve to determine the particulars. the common
grimoires are only remnants of specific workings (if not
downright ridiculous propaganda).
 
# when you call one of these characters (i am referring to the 
# drawings in "goetia, the lesser key of solomon the king" ) 
# do they show up in hologram form for everyone to see? 
# do they carry a scent?  how is their sigil presented with 
# them? (do they were it like a pendant?  does it hover 
# etherically over their head?) do they speak english?

their particular perceptual appearance varies depending on
the condition and association of the observer. see 'General
Response' above. being non-physical, the physical body 
interprets stimuli from goetic spirits much like dreams and 
variable qualities may be discerned. it can help to have 
studied as a group the characteristics of the spirit in 
question, as this may constrain and/or make more likely 
specific manifestations.
 
# are they two dimensional and humans alway have control?

the control factor is usually the concern of those who
evoke and attempt to dominate them. the will of the mage
and the actuality of hir having correctly ascertained
their name and sigil for entrapment would probably best
determine who gains the upper hand, though with the
most powerful demons the weak mage has no chance.
 
# are they the source of myths like 'geenies" 

no, 'djinn' are from Arabic culture, and came before the
usual grimoires (spirit directories and legend/lore compendia)
were constructed/discovered.

# or inspiration for movies like "the exorcist".

no, this was a Babalonian wind demon (pazuzu), cast into 
the role of the possessory spirit a la Satanic in the manner 
of the Roman Catholic Church's paradigm (see the original
novel by Blatty, which puts some great emphasis on the 
skill of exorcism and determination of when this is 
needed, as compared to psychotherapy or physical medicine).
 
# are these characters trapped in their state of being 
# for all eternity?  can they evolve?

lost and fragmented spiritual wanderers, the goetic
spirits are the wildland underdogs in a battle between
the skygod 'heroes' and the underworld 'foes'. cthonic
potentates, they are misunderstood by modern magicians
and disrespected repeatedly in a frantic rush to control,
dominate and marshal the forces of darkness on account of
its 'perpetual evil'. it is this attitude toward the forces
of darkness which inspires me to characterize most
ceremonial magick (especially Solomonic and modern which
derives from it) as 'neo-Christian'.
 
# is there an exchange after they have given you something...
# do they get a gift in return?

if one is respectful of them. the Solomonic mage typically
offers something like 'less torture' or 'earlier release
time for good behavior' or 'another opportunity to join the
legions of Our Lord Jesus H. Christ' in compensation for
providing the location of buried treasure or some other 
very special information.

correspondent B: 
# ...something like they live in your head?
# are you going to do the micro-macrocosm perspective here? 
# if these things are three dimensional beings, and stay in a 
# place until you call them....and others can see them....how 
# are they in your head?

3-d: not of which I am aware. that's DnD magic, though these
     beings could *appear* to be so.
stay: they are motive and uncontrollable. 
see: interaction with consciousness; their appearance is variable.
head: preconceptions influence interpretation; their behavior
      and actuality is in part due to our fractionization from
      what could be called the 'world soul'. re-integration of
      the goetic current into the human sphere would offer us
      the opportunity to recapture Eden, regain true spirituality
      as it becomes more holistic. demons are advanced work, tho.
  
# does this mean that all magickcal workings are simlpy 
# projections of the mind?

not projection, though this does enter into it. all magical
workings are interactions of the mind with the spirit world.


correspondent C:
# I also recently acquired a copy of the Sixth and Seventh 
# Books of Moses!I was wondering are these related to the 
# Goetia at all?

from http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatbooks.html

 6th and 7th Books of Moses
   attributed to Moses
   ...This is an anonymously edited 1940s compilation from The Weimar
   Bible, a medieval grimoire attributed to Moses (author of the
   first 5 books of the Bible). The attribution is spurious,
   needless to say, but the material itself is fascinating. Included
   are the ÒsealsÓ of various angelic, planetary, and infernal
   spirits, often used in European and African-American folk-magic....

I haven't noticed a direct similarity. the sigils seem different.
 

correspondent D:
# Given their specialties, I think it's about having them do your 
# dirty work for you; sometimes for just asking questions . . . 
# anyway, that's why I drifted away from it. Having a spirit do 
# dirty work is not what Magick should be about.

malkuthian, worldly activities described in Lesser Key surely.
'dirty work'? sometimes it includes becoming informed about a
variety of sciences and/or academic pursuits or perhaps becoming
fluent in languages, proficiences with instruments, etc. of
course there is the love, sex, power, wealth, fame thing too,
which are what magic has been about since its inception. I do
think that summoning, threatening, and constraining such spirits
is unethical or at least contrary to my loyalties as a Satanist. ;>


correspondent E: 
# They are useful for any number of reasons, not just whacking 
# people! :) I have used them for protection from adverse weather 
# conditions on long overland drives and simlpy talked to them, 
# to learn more of where they come from and what they are. Not 
# that they always make a lot of sense.

I've invoked a number of them outside recommended ritual conditions.
I agree that they can be helpful and strange.
 
# Granted the spirits seem to encompass all the crap qualities 
# that are human. We can either integrate and control those 
# lower things, or ignore them and if we aren't careful let them 
# manifest within our own minds as neurosia and insanity.

that would depend on your relationship with them. apparently
for you they are malignant and destructive. for many of the
Judeochristian and neoChristian bent this does seem to be
the case. I find that many coming from neopagan backgrounds
just see the goetics as misunderstood terran spirits,
ostracized and misunderstood in their wildness (it has to
do with the perception of 'good and evil' or lack thereof).

# I think the main thing for goetic practicioners to remember 
# is that it is only as evil, scary or weird as you make it. 
# If you go in there with the idea that something weord will 
# happen,it probably will. If you go in and say I cant "see" 
# it except this way, you have limited yourself. 

wonderful, insightful.

# Practice, keep good records, that seems to be the key. I 
# make it a point never to engage in idol conversation with 
# the demons as they seem to only try to get you to let them 
# out of the circle, etc..

then your position with respect to them is as Captor and
Interrogator. it may limit how they treat you, the Evoker.

# If you have preconcieved notions about goetia and think 
# that those notioons are the way things are going to be, 
# then you probably shouldn't work goetic magick.

this is very good advice, from my VERY unorthodox perspective,
but I might say the same thing about angelic invocations, too.

correspondent F:
# You evoke the Goetic spirits into a triangle.  

you do. some of us invoke them into ourselves, which I have
heretofore not yet begunto intensify with sigilizations
except occasionally via projected imagination. 

once I have completely constructed the working ritual tools 
-- right now I'm working on the incense, oil and timing, 
having received instructions from my HGA to be very patient 
and proceed intuitively -- then I'll target myself within a 
square or rectangular area containing the sigil or a close 
approximation. I'll invoke the spirit with its name and 
willingly encounter it in an embrace of welcome. my cause 
is theirs and they shall know this.

# ...You have to realize at the time most of these were 
# written the majority of the population could not read or 
# write 

even the lapsed and expert clerics who cobbled it together?

# and the language was not as concrete as it is today....

one might consider grimoires about as legitimate as the
Necronomicon today (Simon's). with the course of centuries
they are given a sheen of 'respectability' despite the fact
that many of the 'spirit names' are obviously pagan gods,
and, as in the case of the Goetia, the imagination of the
author was very crude -- its repetition is astounding).

correspondent G:
#> ...Having a spirit teach you somthing you didn't know 
#> or to enlighten you isn't DIRTY WORK.

there's the rub. can a 'demon of darkness' enlighten someone?
the dualists will say 'of course not'.

correspondent H: 
# With all due respect . . .
# . . . shouldn't you invoke a sephiratic spirit for that?

unless you don't believe in these spheres or have no
affinity for thefts from Judaic mysticism.

correspondent G: 
# Are you suggesting that I cannot obtain results such as those 
# described in my original post from the evocation of the Goetic 
# spirits? I find the Goetic spirits thus far to be cooperative 
# and non-hostile. 

it appears to vary based on one's relationship to the spirit.

# I don't think the term "demons" is an accurate label for 
# these spirits. I think they could care less about what 
# you want them to do, so long as they are rewarded.

consider a wild animal.
 
jake  responds to correspondent H:
# IMO Thelemic magick lost its cutting edge due to his canonising that
# absurd position. The laudable intention of revitalising Magical 
# practice by a 'continuous revolution' of research and development, 
# became merely a narrowly defined and quite possibly spurious 
# 'spirituality'. 

acceptability was fostered in order that publishing might become
a possibility and money might be made (the Master Therion's
constant problem and something he never learned how to conjure).
instead he hoped to start a cult of adulators who would support
him in his dotage. where magick was not his skill, religion
would become his method.

corrspondent I:
# Well, I think it's mostly true. With the Great Work calling, 
# why do anything else?

almost anything can be justified by labelling it 'the Great Work'.
but what the hell is it? what is it NOT? what are the symptoms of
NOT doing it?

correspondent J asks jake:
# 1. How in the world could "Thelemic magick" have changed due to
# something Crowley advocated, except from non-existence into 
# existence?

by virtue of the fact that it was not so labelled in a cultish
fashion, being that magical endeavor which sought to establish
personal independence, maturity, and a growth in power. Crowley
sought to play along with the Goldawnians in considering the
mystical as the 'white' and mundane as the 'black' magic. this
was a failure on his part. Satanists of many stripes have come
to realize this.

# 2. Who were the pre-Crowley Thelemic magicians who stated 
# that the intention of such magick was R&D?

medievals, many others. their activities were often called
'experiments', these necromancers, while condemned by the
Christian authorities at the time.

# 4. How would Crowley's advocacy of such a stance (which 
# hardly started with him) affect a true Thelemite?

Crowley's fostering of a cult ostensibly identified with
this label (Thelemic) cements into dogmatic tradition the
notion of that to which 'true Thelemites' might aspire,
and it can mislead the aspirant who doesn't know his ass
from a hole in the ground, even if a true Thelemite.
  
# 5. Why or how would working for one's K&C prevent such R&D?

when it becomes putridly self-deprecating, vainglorious,
hung up on elitist asceticism and purificando.

correspondent B: 
# Why do you think that Goetia is Black Magic?  Not all Goetic 
# spirits are the same and they are not black magic.   

consult Crowley's "Magick in Theory and Practice". also consult
such internet excitement as the notion that 'black magic' may
actually be an advanced form of the Thelemic Ordeal in text like
Liber Nigris 
    http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/libernigris.fn

# ...understanding how you deal with spirits such as Goetics, 
# Abramelin, elementals, etc. is similar to how the HGA works 
# with you.  

each according to hir own temperament, indeed.

# ...you have a King of Light, HGA and a King of Darkness, your 
# Demon.  The secret to success is getting both to get along 
# and to work with them so that everyone evolves.  So many magickians get 
# stuck on working on either HGA or with Demons and wonder why they're 
# unbalanced.  They neglected that aspect of themselves which needs 
# addressing.  Balance is the key to all magick that includes Goetia 
# and the K&C of HGA.

beautiful. similar to the Judaic notions of a personal angel and
demon. this carries polar elements which I find extremely valuable
and reflective of my own (meager) experience.
 
# True black magic is not doing your will or denying the truth 
# about yourself at least that is my perspective, what is yours?

black magic is magic done by black folks (like hoodoo, pretty
good shit, really). harmful or evil magic is simply this. that
which doesn't have mystical ends is just that. those which use
the term 'black' to indicate something that they don't like
have seriously problems.

blessed beast!

nigris (333)