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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.pagan.magick,alt.christnet.demonology From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of the CoE) Subject: Goetic Protections (was A letter from ....) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:12:35 GMT 50011128 VI! om BETTER SPREAD WHEN DEAD! Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume): >Finding myself at something of a loss to fully satisfy our >readers who insist that the 72 spirits of the Goetia are all >Klippothic, evil and dangerous, and must be treated with such extreme >caution that a physically "sealed" and insulated magick Circle is a >necessity.... this is a straw man. however, the point you are attempting to refute is a valuable one. Savedow does indicate that the spirits are all evil/untrustworthy, but the grimoires seem to say in themselves that spirits like Vassago can be helpful. Gnome quotes "Le Duc d'Richelieu" without identifying him except as a 'Secret Chief': > ...concerning the problem of circle consecration. an interesting characterization. I'm not sure that I'd put it that way. David Cantu's point about the easel legs intruding into the circle is valuable from the perspective of the purist (because no connection ought to be made between Triangle and Circle, without exceptions). dismissing it as extremism isn't helpful to an understanding of the Arte, but putting it in context (within your chosen cosmological and metaphysical sets) could become a substantive discussion. >...You and your colleagues take a monistic Tibetan, and >Jungian, approach to what was originally a dualistic Western system >of evocation deeply rooted in Christian and earlier Judaic symbolism. this makes a great deal of sense. it is what I have said in response to evaluating the historical precedence for the methods you're using. for one of a classical perspective, they may find your methods overly dangerous or problematic for some other reason. this is also what Cantu was trying to say, though his imbalances sometimes occlude expression. >As you may know, the Goetia is essentially "Christian" in origin arguably anti-Christian or quasi-Christian. putting it in quotes is probably the best way to go, agreed. it certainly isn't part of the Christian religion, and the way that the spirits and the whole is described don't really link in easily with Christian ethics or (at least conservative) Christian motivations. more reasonably it was someone who wanted to create revolutionary and/or controversial "black book" material for scandal and/or supporting anti-Church activities. one might consider the construction of Black Masses to be comparable. >--so the lack of direct reference to the Hebrew Klippoth is obvious. sure, but reference to the qlippoth and residence to or identity with it is a matter of *theoretical* assertion, not something logically untenable. they don't seem to be described as qlippotic in character consistently, though a ritualist might discover and thereafter decide that the beings listed in the goetic Lesser Key are all evil. apparently the term 'goetic' itself has a history of meaning 'evil' or 'black', even though its origins may be cloudy and many terms have been utilized this way by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as its spinoffs. >They simply did not use the term because they were not familiar with it, >preferring the Tarterian and Psuedo-Dionisian conceptions. precisely. >Be that as >it may, those who must consider all of these entities as "evil" and >very dangerous, are not going to be attracted to the notion that they >can use their own reflection in a mirror to summon such "monsters" to >visible appearance, indeed, they may not believe that it is possible, they may think the practice dangerous, or reckless. however, I'm not sure why anyone who undertakes to create a circle of protection from these beings, who wears weapons and vestments of magical power to protect themselves, etc., could really be considered to regard them as "good" either. >in spite of the fact that the Goetia clearly >states that they are to appear in "Fair and Human Form without Horror >of Deformity," this is a misstatement as I read it. the Lesser Key quite often repeats the refrain that they may be *compelled to appear* in said forms, but that doesn't mean that every spirit will do so *unless* compelled. also, there is no mention that I ever saw in any goetic grimoire from Sloane documents that mentions seeing their fair (or ugly) visage "in the mirror". >a pertinent fact that Maestro Savedow, adopting a traditional Jewish >approach to an essentially Christian grimoire, chooses to overlook. as a Christian grimoire I don't see anything about it which would lend it to being used to contact spirits friendly to Christianity. a great number of the spirits are associated with non-Christian activities and values. the first example I came across in a review of the alt.magick demonref at http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/demonref was: # andras # He is a Great Marquis, appearing in the Form of an Angel # with a Head like a Black Night Raven, riding upon a strong # Black Wolf, and having a Sharp and Bright Sword # flourished aloft in his hand. His Office is to sow Discords.... quoted from Crowley's edition of the goetia. a Christian would not find summoning a spirit whose office was to sow discord acceptable except if that Christian be up to no good. a directory for the summoning of such a list of spirits would be operating on thin ice to say the least. not only that, my memory is that the Goetia is referred to in other grimoires and in its own introduction (?) as containing the names and characters of "evil spirits", quite specifically. the Christian magician has little to justify such dabbling in "black magic" or, more conventionally, "sorcery". if I'm mistaken here, please offer correction. >However, all this considered, your dark mirror method is not >going to appeal to the dualistic true believers of either faith, unless they be inverso-religious, probably true, though I still see no reason that the method itself is problematic per se. so what if one is to face the demon in the mirror? to the stalwart magician, I suppose, it merely represents a problem of volitional fortitude. consider the demon-summoners in the fictional texts of "The Master of Five Magics" and Asprin's "Myth Adventure" series. they fight the spirits will-to- will and this quite often outside conventional magical protections. the dualism of the faith would seem to preclude involvement with spirits of an evil character, especially if there was nothing to gain by their doing. consider the possibility of attempting to *convert or save* these spirits to the One True Way, for example. maybe the believing dualist Christian might consider these spirits to be subject to the One True Christ (or Jehovah, or Michael or Adonai, or whoever) and wish to use them in a manner coincident with their faith (finding treasure they will subsequently donate to their church, for example). whether they use the method you have created is irrelevant with respect to this also. the mage might consider the spirits wholly evil and yet still engage in the nasty work "in the Name of the Lord." >might use >and yet there might be some of these true believers who would try the >Mirror Method simply because you, and your colleagues Maestroes >Kraig, White and DuQuette either practice it or recommend it. I think Kraig varies somewhat from Runyon's interpretation of the ritual events, though he seems to have enjoyed a variation on the mirror method, from what he indicates in email. > It is not technically possible for you to move the invoking >pentagram ritual (i.e. your circle casting) or your septagram ritual >(Sephirotic Gate opening) into a post circumambulation, post-set-up, >sealed circle mode because you would then be circumambulating an >unconsecrated, un-opened vortex.... I'd like to focus more strongly on this technical detail and will take it up in another, practical, post. > Personally I recommend the old "Ban! Ban! Ban!" ritual from >ancient Assyria (also a favorite of Vincent Price and Christopher >Lee). You can of course abbreviate it because it goes on for 47 >lines, but it does seal a circle! LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one who is inspired by fictional portrayals of magical practice. :> > I hope this has been a help in clarifying the issue for both >sides. With Vassago, and given your philosophical approach, these >extra precautions were not necessary, apparently that would be the first order of contention. for those who maintain that the Lesser Key deals exclusively with evil spirits, even Vassago would be considered such, though probably weak and easily subject to the direction of the mage. contrariwise, did the author of the grimoire say "ignore all the precautions when dealing with the good spirits listed herein"? the demonref gives Crowley's listing for Vassago as: # vassago # ...a Mighty Prince, being of the same nature as Agares.... # ...his office is to declare things Past and to Come, and to # discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governeth 26 # Legions of Spirits. [GAC03] it doesn't say "he's a nice guy" or "don't bother with the circle of protection", etc. here's what Agares says: # agares # ...cometh up in the form of an old fair Man, riding upon a # Crocodile, carrying a Goshawk upon his fist, and yet mild # in appearance. He maketh them to run that stand still, # and bringeth back runaways. ...and causeth Earthquakes. # He hath under his government 31 Legions of Spirits. [GAC02] mild in appearance. no mentions here of 'reliable and trustworthy'. >but you should realize that if >Maestro Kraig's popularization of this method justified your >popularization of it as its originator.... apparently suggesting that it is not a REcreation but novel. no fault in novelty, though historicity is valuable to identify. GET A VASECTOMY, PREVENT AN ABORTION blessed beast! boboroshi@satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director, Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/ Satanism Archive: http://www.satanservice.org/ Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.pagan.magick,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.satanism Subject: Re: Goetic Protections (was A letter from ....) References: <3bf3169c.34099146@trialnews.peoplepc.com><3c097f02.51450033@trialnews.peoplepc.com> From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of the CoE) Reply-To: boboroshi@satanservice.org User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:24:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1007342671 208.201.242.18 (Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:24:31 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:24:31 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:30152 alt.magick:278495 alt.magick.goetia:1234 alt.pagan.magick:30912 alt.christnet.demonology:12970 alt.satanism:193892 50011202 VI! om BETTER SPREAD WHEN DEAD! Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume): >>>Finding myself at something of a loss to fully satisfy our >>>readers who insist that the 72 spirits of the Goetia are all >>>Klippothic, evil and dangerous, and must be treated with such extreme >>>caution that a physically "sealed" and insulated magick Circle is a >>>necessity.... boboroshi: >> ...Savedow does indicate that the spirits are all evil/untrustworthy, >> but the grimoires seem to say in themselves that spirits like Vassago >> can be helpful. Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume): > ...Savedow's method is medieval, my impression was that the Arte (Goetia) is itself medieval. your text below seems to confirm this. > dualistic and completely separates the spirits from the individual > personality, even though Savedow is himself mature enough to realize > that they are not "physical" manifestations. to get back to the original point, however, even some qabalists suggest that the qliphotic demons are psycho-spiritual entities. whether or not they use the same terms (evil, qliphotic) is irrelevant. that the grimoires themselves describe some of them as "Evil Spirits" on the one hand and occasionally as "Good" is something of an inconsistency which you may present that DISCOUNTS the connection between the two (because the qliphotic demons are, by many, considered 'entirely evil', even if they aren't). > Our Dark Mirror method is more in keeping with Tibetan tantric and > Jungian/Hermetic-NeoPlatonic Renaissance monistic conceptions yes, I understood that. > which are frankly more sophisticated and philosophically mature. your assessment. opinions vary, which is why there is discussion about it. > The methods of protection in these two different systems, based on > strikingly divergent philosophies, are different in practical > application and will only be compared by those too misinformed to > realize the philosophical and psychological differences. seems to me the same system (with variations) using different methods of human-spirit interaction (which I also thought was valuably revised, though my method differs from yours by virtue of proximation to the spirit; I sought to REMOVE the protective barriers between us -- something Savedow and many other goetic magicians would call ludicrously insane -- I don't mind what they think of what I do, obviously). >> Gnome quotes "Le Duc d'Richelieu" without identifying him except as >> a 'Secret Chief': > Don't know who "Le Duc d'Richelieu" really (or unreally) was? > (Must I "Hammer" the point home?) I'm still collecting Hammer Films, sorry if I haven't seen the one to which you are apparently referring. >> David Cantu's point about the easel legs intruding into the circle is >> valuable from the perspective of the purist (because no connection ought >> to be made between Triangle and Circle, without exceptions). ...putting >> it in context (within your chosen cosmological and metaphysical sets) >> could become a substantive discussion. > This only applies to those using the Savedow dualistic approach. now there we agree! my impression is that the dualistic approach is how Goetia has been interpreted by most of its expositors over the course of history. I'd like to learn more if this is an incomplete picture and there are some kind of references to which I may turn that will illustrate this. > ...In using the Mirror's reflection of one's own face, the receiver > or skryer must make an intimate, personal connection with the spirit. yes, and from the dualistic approach of Savedow and his predecessors this kind of 'intimate, personal connection' is extremely dangerous and one step closer to INVOCATION (which is what *I* prefer). so you see, I'm not pushing a paradigm here. I'm not agreeing with you or disputing you, only trying to understand what methods are within what cosmological or metaphysical sets, as I described in my quote above, and to see where you and Savedow and whoever else fits into it all. > In this case it is the philosophical principle of the Triangle and > the Circle, not the ugga-bugga of childish magical "Force Fields" > ala Buck Rogers; based on the fantasy that the Spirit is a totally > separate entity like an ET, or a werewolf, that can be held at bay > with proton rays, or wolfbane. We have matured a bit since > childhood, I hope. slamming it as childish doesn't convince me of its inferiority or its immaturity. I see the value of what you're doing, but I also understand the cosmological mindset from which instructions like Savedow's proceeds. the discussion could easily branch into a comparison between Hermetic and natural magic (and has with consideration of other topics). the idea is that what is inscribed on the ritual chamber takes on the spiritual power of the entities whose names are presented within the diagrams. that is, like the worship of gods or communications with other non-physical entities (whose existence as separate entities you apparently think immature), the consideration of an order of beings whose nature appears inimical to humans (which I would class as 'wild') and operations undertaken to interact with said beings is not a 'philosophic principle' to those with this mindset so much as actual energizing of the ritual implements and sigils using the protection of their (external?) god and some (external?) angels and formulae. in which case (contrasting with your description), the Triangle of Art and the Circle of Protection are indeed energetic fields whose linkage through faithful worship and penances *outside* the circle makes possible the protection of the mage by virtue of a use of Power Names (Michael, Tetragrammaton, etc.) and formulaic address. you may wish to call these 'childish' (and I might agree), but that doesn't mean it isn't traditional or rational, considering the great number of folks who still consider the cosmology including (at least apparently) separate non-physical beings to be relevant and actual. >>dangerous or problematic for some other reason. this is also what Cantu >>was trying to say, though his imbalances sometimes occlude expression. >He had a very bad experience using a Savedow style of operation. >He cannot get by that-- People who do not have the strength and >positive self image to face themselves in the mirror should not be >doing our style of Goetia in any case---and IMO trying to discredit >the Mirror method to please those individuals too frightened or >emotionally disturbed to face their own demons, serves no purpose >except to comfort them at the expense of a very valuable and very >effective system of evocation. are you saying that you do not agree that the more dualistic notion has been until recently the traditional interpretation? I'd like to discover the monist and other sources which I might compare with Savedow other than those we've already discussed. >>>As you may know, the Goetia is essentially "Christian" in origin >> >>arguably anti-Christian or quasi-Christian. putting it in quotes is >>probably the best way to go, agreed. it certainly isn't part of the >>Christian religion, and the way that the spirits and the whole is >>described don't really link in easily with Christian ethics or (at >>least conservative) Christian motivations. more reasonably it was >>someone who wanted to create revolutionary and/or controversial >>"black book" material for scandal and/or supporting anti-Church >>activities. one might consider the construction of Black Masses to >>be comparable. > ...This type of ceremonial magick--as apocryphal and theologically > disapproved as it was, was the absolute antithesis of Satanism. > God and the Angels were used to control the demons. predominantly the Satanism of which you speak is fictional. the fact that it was apocryphal and theologically disapproved was the major point I was trying to make. this is the objective of the construction of the Black Mass amongst *actual* Satanists -- deconditioning an intense and overly-sensitive reaction to disapproved ritual activities. in contrast, do you think that those who created these grimoires actually used them? do you think they thought of themselves as pioneers, somehow fabricating a spirit-directory whose members they thought it actually wise to consult or control? it may be misleading to call it *strictly* apocryphal. Milton and other nonscriptural writers had a tremendous effect on the views of the Church and its membership. certainly theologically-disapproved. the antithesis of Satanism would be the worship of stupidity and the enshrinement of self-submission to arrogant authority. I don't hear that this is in any way involved with Goetia, but perhaps I'm mistaken. you've largely confused fictional Satanists with actual ones, from what I am able to see at this remove (having moderate exposure to your expressions about Satanism yet no idea what you're referencing). >>> --so the lack of direct reference to the Hebrew Klippoth is obvious. >> >>sure, but reference to the qlippoth and residence to or identity with >>it is a matter of *theoretical* assertion, not something logically >>untenable. they don't seem to be described as qlippotic in character >>consistently, though a ritualist might discover and thereafter decide >>that the beings listed in the goetic Lesser Key are all evil. apparently >>the term 'goetic' itself has a history of meaning 'evil' or 'black', >>even though its origins may be cloudy and many terms have been utilized >>this way by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as its spinoffs. > > They will be all evil if you want them to be.... will they all be angelic if I want them to be? how far can this be taken? > ...we see the universe as a marvelous blend of all aspects, and > we see the spirits of the Goetia rebellious elements of our own, and > the universal, psyche. If you want muck, you'll get muck. so the question must arise as to why elements of the psyche which are rebellious would behave as you want them to, and does it make a difference who it is that does the summoning as regards the accoutrements and the rules by which the magician will abide? what I'm getting at here is something you haven't really addressed. for the fearful Christian who believes themselves interacting with some kind of anti-Christian demonic being, wouldn't they be better off conducting themselves *as such*, even if they DO use your mirror method? I tend to think of spirits as changing behaviour based on one's approach to them, which seems to conform somewhat with your own psycho-mystical ideas with respect to what and who they are, so I wondered if have considered that a variation in approach may valuably reflect one's role with respect to the world from which these beings originate and operate. to put it more plainly, perhaps Savedow and Cantu will be better served by adherence to strict protective mechanisms because they are less likely to be treated with respect and pleasantness by the demons. for those are actively aligning themselves, no protection may be necessary. whereas, the way you proceed may work best for you, and likewise for me. >> ...I'm not sure why anyone who >>undertakes to create a circle of protection from these beings, who >>wears weapons and vestments of magical power to protect themselves, >>etc., could really be considered to regard them as "good" either. >Some of these entities are evil and strong symbolic control and >protection is necessary. That should be obvious. Standard >philosophical ritual protection is used in all our operations. why don't you dispense with the protections for the Good Spirits? >>> in spite of the fact that the Goetia clearly states that they are >>> to appear in "Fair and Human Form without Horror of Deformity," >> >> this is a misstatement as I read it. > > Then you didn't read it very carefully. The Goetia clearly states > that they first appear in the symbolic form that was my point, thanks for affirming it. > and they are then commanded to appear "In fair and human form with > horror or deformity and without delay"..... agreed regarding the practical instructions provided by the grimoire. here it is again: >> the Lesser Key quite often repeats >> the refrain that they may be *compelled to appear* in said forms, but >> that doesn't mean that every spirit will do so *unless* compelled. >> also, there is no mention that I ever saw in any goetic grimoire from >> Sloane documents that mentions seeing their fair (or ugly) visage >> "in the mirror". > ...If you'd read that I wouldn't have had anything to discover back > in 1969, would I?" that's not my point. it is a major omission should that be considered to have been an original, or previous and lost, method, in which case I'd think there'd be mention. no criticism of your discovery intended, only a remark about the history of the methods involved and what is implied by the text itself (rather than by the diagrams and their occasional ambiguous or unusual comments). >>>a pertinent fact that Maestro Savedow, adopting a traditional Jewish >>>approach to an essentially Christian grimoire, chooses to overlook. >>as a Christian grimoire I don't see anything about it which would lend >>it to being used to contact spirits friendly to Christianity. >...The above is self-contradictory and pointless. The Goetia was >an "underground" apocryphal grimoire that derives from a Christian >culture. It certainly does not reflect "common Christian" values. thus my comments about its rebellious character (comparable to what might be done, modernly especially, by Satanists constructing some kind of Black Mass -- to elaborate: modern Satanists, unlike the fictional ones used to scare religion into people and sell occult horror novels, create rebellious and nonstandard rituals, though these may vary depending on the individual and hir background; if someone was a Hindu, for example, and wished to make a Black Mass to decondition themselves from childhood upbringing, then they might invert elements of ritual with which they were familiar, or seek a nonstandard, personal objective in a ritual which seems to them to be a conventional style, no matter to WHAT religion any of it may pertain -- probably none). >But it is also not Satanic. in the way you mean this I agree. I'd compare it to the activities of a Lion Tamer who goes into the jungle with whip and gun in hand to interact with the great big cats. she is not interested in worshipping the beast, only in some kind of protected interaction. most modern Satanists don't worship much of anything, other than themselves. >They are referred to as "Evil Spirits" in the preliminary >abstract. The actual descriptions don't often bear this out. why do you think that is true? > ...Controlling demons by divine power is the philosophical rationale > of medieval ceremonial magick. that was also my impression, and my point in asking about Savedow above. if he has a medieval mindset, perhaps it conforms to the context from which the material arose. re DMKraig: >I've talked with some of his students. He teaches the facial >reflection method. very interesting! does significant variation from your methods occur otherwise, or is he operating merely with a different theology? >>LOL! >>I'm glad I'm not the only one who is inspired by fictional >>portrayals of magical practice. :> >Obviously you didn't you recognize "The Duc"? And as for "Ban, >Ban, Ban" well that is not fictional. it should be very obvious by now that it was entirely lost on me. sorry. :> for all I knew you were summoning some spirit in your circle and then channelling the interaction directly into your keyboard. I've done that before, so couldn't be sure. >>apparently that would be the first order of contention. for those >>who maintain that the Lesser Key deals exclusively with evil spirits, >>even Vassago would be considered such, though probably weak and >>easily subject to the direction of the mage. >Evil is in the eye of the beholder--- they are rebellious, >fallen, capricious, disorganized--and some are dangerous. I can understand rebellious, capricious, and disorganized. how would you (from your operating mindframe) define "fallen" here? to save you some trouble, I'm aware of the stories of fallen angels in Noah, Enoch, Milton, and a variety of other sources. I'm trying to understand how it applies within a less dualistic context such as you are presenting. >They are also mythological archetypes in the Collective Unconscious >and fragments of the Jungian Shadow. so, as you see it, combining them would complete the Shadow in some way? do you agree with the bulk of the speculation concerning how one ought best interact with the Shadow, what it includes, etc.? could you say more about how you see the Shadow? it is one of my most favourite subjects (perhaps this goes without saying). > As a self-styled "Satanist" there is no other kind of Satanist than self-styled. being 'other- styled' defeats the principles of individualism inherent to the path. > your prissy attitude about how awful and terrible they are > frankly amuses me. good. :> I'd much prefer you amused by your misperception of me than offended. at least then you'll not take me as being antagonistic. I haven't really said how I consider these spirits. the fact that I have constructed INVOKING methods for them and carried out more than one of these does not indicate a prissy approach, however. as I said before, I'm trying to understand the whole subject, not dwell overly or biasedly upon any single individual's beliefs. >>the demonref gives Crowley's listing for Vassago as: >> >># vassago >># ...a Mighty Prince, being of the same nature as Agares.... >># ...his office is to declare things Past and to Come, and to >># discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governeth 26 >># Legions of Spirits. [GAC03] >> >>it doesn't say "he's a nice guy" or "don't bother with the circle of >>protection", etc. > >The actual quote on Vassago reads: > >"(3.) Vassago.--- The Third Spirit is a Mighty Prince, being of the >same nature as Agares. He is called Vassago. This Spirit is of a Good >Nature, and his office is to declare things Past and to come, and to >discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governrth 26 legions of >Spirits, and this is his Seal." > >from Lemegeton vel Clavicula Solomonis Regis--Goetia >translated by S. L. M. Mathers, edited by Aleister Crowley >(Also word-for-word in Sloane MS. 2731 British Library). thanks for the elaboration. I was consulting a short-hand reproduction of the document to which you referred (and I provided my reference URL). I think must have left out the part about the Good Nature because it contradicted the overall description of the beings contactable through the use of the grimoire. I'll seriously consider revising that. so it does say Vassago is "of a Good Nature". does this mean that you *could* omit the protections and interact with him directly and feel safe in so doing? does it mean that you could INVOKE the spirit and suffer no ill consequences from the change in practice? thanks for your patience. :> blessed beast! PUSHING UP DAISIES IS THE FIRST STEP TO REFORESTATION boboroshi@satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director, Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/ Satanism Archive: http://www.satanservice.org/
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