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Physical Manifestation in Goetic Evocation and Mystical Results

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick
From: nagasiva 
Subject: Re: Physical Manifestation in Goetic Evocation and Mystical Results
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 04:44:33 GMT

50031031 viii om Evening of the Dead

Gnomedplume@unowhere.com (Gnome d Plume):
#># ...In 30 years we have never been burned, bitten,
#># kicked or slimed  by demons--but that doesn't mean 
#># we haven't been scared, amazed, disgusted, enthralled 
#># and wonderfully instructed.

nocTifer: 
#> sure, but aren't you also *worshipping* some of these demons? 
#> how nasty are they if you can invert them and worship them 
#> or if they have in fact been inverted previously and turned
#> into "goetic" demons? isn't the very term 'goetic' just some
#> effective negative implication without much force fomented
#> by Christians or lapsed Christians? 

Gnomedplume@unowhere.com (Gnome d Plume):
# The above is meaningless in the context of your "discussion."

it's absolutely meaningful. if you're worshipping these beings
(as Neopagans), then this might imply that they are different
than may be purported by those who consider all of the goetic
demons to be caustic and dangerous (way too dangerous to 
worship). it might also mean that you are summoning something
other than the goetic demons regardless of what you claim
and/or believe, whether or not we're talking some kind of 
physical manifestation.

#># Real, genuine spirit evocation is far more exciting and 
#># rewarding than the fanciful ugga-bugga these deluded people 
#># are hopelessly searching for.
#> 
#> if they claim to find it, why denigrate them? why not ask them
#> for additional information, get the whole story, and then
#> contribute what you know? ...

# ...The only well-documented Goetic operations are ours (several 
# hundred over 32 years. Some observed and reported in published 
# accounts by Robert S. Ellwood, and Hans Holzer. One complete 
# operation filmed by a professional t.v. news crew), Nelson White's 
# (20 or so over 15 years--one reported in *Gnosis* by Stephen 
# Holler. Lon Duquette's (a dozen or so over 10 years, published 
# in his books) and Steve Savedow (a dozen or so over two years 
# in his book). That's it. 
#
# None of us (including Savedow) claim physical manifestation.
# The other so-called accounts are anecdotal, unsubstantiated,
# second and third hand re-tellings.

very interesting. thank you. I'll watch for contrary evidence.

# ...don't ...insult Voudoun practitioners, American Indian
# shamans and others in various folk traditions by implying that 
# they are credulous believers in the fully physical instantaneous
# manifestation of spirits. These folk traditions don't make an 
# issue of this the way we modern urbanites do because their 
# so-called "primitive" concept of "reality" is not 
# schizopherically Cartesian, or psychotically Biblical. The 
# imagination is still "real" to them as it was to the earlier 
# Hermetic philosophers. 

I hadn't realized it was an insult to reflect on what I've heard
from a variety of religious about what they thought possible in
regards the physical manifestation of their deities, or some
spirits. I find it interesting that as an anthropologist you're
convinced that they would not make such claims and might find it
in the least way offensive to suggest it. I'm also not sure why
you're only talking about folk traditions here, since the Goetia
is associated with Christianity (inverso?) in reflection of old
gods and fabrications from what I'm able to determine.

# ...a large sub-stratum of our society 
# has a desperate need to believe in the most banal forms of
# supernaturalism as an escape from various realities about 
# themselves and their lives that they can't accept and deal 
# with. 

while that may be so, my interest is in entertaining their
ontological claims and seeing for myself what they are
talking about happening. I learn quite a bit that way.

# High magick spirit evocation is spiritual art form that uses
# hypnotic techniques to achieve subjective visionary results. 
# That's what it is. 

the grimoires themselves purport something far more fantastic,
of course. you still did not address my question about how you
go about confirming any sort of mystical results you intend to
produce through these ceremonies.

peace be with you,

nocTifer

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