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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick
From: nocTifer 
Subject: Physical Manifestation in Goetic Evocation and Mystical Results
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:52:25 GMT

50031030 viii om

Gnomedplume@unowhere.com (Gnome d Plume):
# Asking someone who obviously wants to believe in an irrational,
# immature concept of what constitutes an apparition; i.e. a "body" for
# a "disembodied spirit" (a contradiction in terms even in medieval
# parlayance) to have a "clearer understanding" of DuQuette's
# statement--or my Hermetic/Jungian magical field theory, is pointless.

given the number of contentions about evocation to visible (physical) 
manifestation, it is far from irrational; there are whole spiritualist 
communities that believe such things about other types of entities,
including gods and ghosts. as for immaturity, the way that one 
conducts oneself is far greater an indicator of maturity than WHAT 
one believes per se. 

slamming someone for the content of their belief is just a kind of 
political and doctrinaire repudiation that holds little water,
especially when there is a hefty tradition of interprtation which
supports it. this smacks of your rivalry with other ceremonialists,
and it does you little good to treat them with disrespect.

# The Tibetan method for dealing with this foolishness is to take the
# kid out to a graveyard at dusk, tie him to a tree and tell him to
# evoke every demon he can think of all night long.
#        In the morning, if he hasn't died of freight, they find him a
# wiser and more philosophical student.

right, toss the child into the water to make them swim. ask sri
catyananda how well that worked for her aquatic navigation skill.
maybe that's how they train people in bootcamp, but it isn't
generally a very compassionate approach, and it may not have
the same results you'd prefer. there is always the possibility
that being *forced to do something* is insufficient to enable
that thing (i.e. one needs the intention to make it happen),
and your intimidation tactics would result in nothing at all.
it might even result in someone turning against you. I can say
that your bluster in response to my considered questions was
not convincing, and in fact gave me reason to conclude that
you were insufficiently informed and emotionally immature.

#       With all your recommended testing procedure, has it occurred to
# you that if these Goetic demons were actually as separate from us, and
# as physically potent and powerful  as the Jasons among us believe, why
# haven't they manifested in this horrendous manner in six O.T.A.
# Temples in hundreds of operations over 30 years?

you did something wrong? that's the usual excuse given for their lack
of appearance. given that you've created a novel method of interaction
(your mirror-technique), this is certainly an available criticism of 
your activities. on the other hand, without some kind of testimony to 
the positive using traditional methods (can we obtain this via Kraig 
or Savedow or someone? -- it does seem so), it is unreasonable to 
believe in the efficacy of what is being taught in other quarters.

#       Are they hiding this physical capability from us? If so, why? 

you've prevented them from the physical corporation somehow 
through your chosen methods? why do you conclude to the contrary?

#       Is it possible that we are the victims of some demonic
# conspiracy? 

maybe you're dialing the wrong number. certitude is to some degree,
in the art magical, a measure of imbalance, by my assessment, 
very comparable in intensity to conspiracy-suppositions.

# All 72 spirits got together, back in 1969, and unanimously
# decided (or maybe were ordered by a Lower Power) to fool me and 
# Frater Khedemel, and Soror Kara, and over a hundred Fratres and
# Sorores over the next 30 years into thinking that we could see them
# and channel them, but not touch and feel them, or photograph them.

maybe the grimoire itself is faulty, 'blinded' from those who have
not the key to its understanding. if something is only perceivable 
by the subject, is it anything more than imagination? why give it
*more* relevance than role-playing and scary Bloody Mary stories?
what are you doing to measure the supposed mystical results?

#      IMO the real reason why some of these people cling to the notion
# that Goetia demons are totally separate beings that can physically
# manifest is that they can't accept the rebellious and perverse aspects
# of their own psyches. 

if their psyches have such aspects. do you maintain that all who go
about summoning such demons have these?

# They have to blame their evil on something outside themselves. 

uncontrolled nature is inside *and* outside. 

# They can't look at their own faces in a magick mirror because 
# they don't like themselves. They can't own their own bad. 

or maybe they don't think that method is effective toward
achieving the end you have contended is only available via
that course. I don't follow the logic that just because they
think spirits of this type can manifest physically that they
therefore are afraid to follow you down your path. illogical,
and it strikes me more that it seems a threat to your presumed
authority (the same as my questions have for you in the past,
and the same that Tom's incessant challenge to you becomes --
your outrageous attempts to intimidate in response are flatly
in contradiction to the spiritual maturity that mysticism is
supposed to yield to the long-time practitioner).

# This is (IMO) magical cowardice. They like to think that a "real"
# Goetia operation (which they sometimes pretend they've witnessed) 
# is more dangerous than Siegfried & Roy's act, 

or more dangerous than looking into mirrors and doing mysticism.

# but the real truth is that they are afraid to face themselves. 

one reply is that you aren't courageous enough to take traditional
methods and apply your will to make them work, thereby enabling
you access to the powers and knowledge that these demons have.
I'm not saying I know the truth here, but there exists a spectrum
of perspective on this matter which your bluster doesn't address,
and personal confrontation constitutes, especially when sustained, 
rather contrary evidence to your position *and* your results.

#      In 30 years we have never been burned, bitten, kicked or slimed
# by demons--but that doesn't mean we haven't been scared, amazed,
# disgusted, enthralled and wonderfully instructed. 

sure, but aren't you also *worshipping* some of these demons? 
how nasty are they if you can invert them and worship them 
or if they have in fact been inverted previously and turned
into "goetic" demons? isn't the very term 'goetic' just some
effective negative implication without much force fomented
by Christians or lapsed Christians? 

# Real, genuine spirit evocation is far more exciting and 
# rewarding than the fanciful ugga-bugga these deluded people 
# are hopelessly searching for.

if they claim to find it, why denigrate them? why not ask them
for additional information, get the whole story, and then
contribute what you know? the need to be Right is as much 
a problem as projecting fantasies upon the real. losing sight
of this is in part what Tom is pointing out, and taking the
Raja by the Tines, so to speak, just testifies to the weakness
of your position in the shadow of his criticism.

were it just Tom or the more abrasive of your critics for
whom you evinced this umbrage, it would be a non-issue. someone
else would ask the questions to which you could respond with
patience what constitutes a FAQ regarding The Goetia, and Tom's
persistent inquiries could be relegated to a formatted response
that would serve all of us at least to know what you think. as
it is, the whole comes off as a personal squabble, at best, and
at worst an indicator that you haven't thought the matter through.

in person you're a very amiable guy, Poke, and I've generally
enjoyed our interactions where there has been a parity between
us and we've listened carefully to one another's perspective.
I hope that you can see my post here not as an attack but as
a commentary on your tactics. I think that they are insufficient 
in defending the perspective you are presenting in your doctrines 
and, admirably, carrying into your practice. I thought this was 
true when you reacted to me in this way when I just asked queries
and I continue to think this is so as you carry on in responding 
to others in the same, apparently defensive, manner. 

peace be with you,

nocTifer