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Goetic Elements

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.christnet.demonology,alt.satanism
From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOC of the CoE)
Subject: Goetic Elements (Re: A letter from ...)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:55:10 GMT

50011128 VI! om

		GET A VASECTOMY, PREVENT AN ABORTION!
 
"Beetle" :
>...The drama depends for its principal interest upon
>the presence of its two primary personæ:  the Operator and the Spirit in
>question.  The absence of either renders the point of the Operation moot,
>in my opinion.

	apparently some magicians work in pairs or groups on this sort
	of thing, so it should probably be "operators"

ABSENCE OF THE OPERATORS --

	complete absence would make no sense whatever unless they had
	some kind of link to the place and time (magical, presumably)
	that allowed them to conduct the interview from afar. if such
	were possible, would this be an *advantage* to the Solomonic
	magician, as compared to being directly involved with the
	evocation and its moment-to-moment developments?

	absence in some single senses may be beneficial if you're
	talking about invocation, but I'd think that evocation would
	require all your wits about you and a presence respectful of
	the entity summoned.

	I suppose if a spirit believed that there was a magician
	summoning hir there really wasn't, this wouldn't necessarily
	be a total loss on the part of the spirit. it might be fun
	for hir, perhaps damaging. what affects goetic spirits in 
	more than a temporary way? can they be killed? do they have
	lifespans? or are they like viruses?
	
ABSENCE OF THE SPIRIT --

	if the spirit was absent, perhaps the mage would project the
	existence of the being and interact as if it were there in fact.
	this may exteriorize a portion of the individual's mind and/or
	engage a more playful and trance-based order of consciousness.
	
> ...Unless the operation can be based upon some intelligible
>model of existence, then it's just play acting, and does not represent an
>attempt to verify or demonstrate the accuracy of that model.

you've confused the planes. comprehension and ritual adeptship are
not coincident skills. Bonewits describes this well in his "Real Magic"
where he speaks of the physiologist and the professional athlete,
the former knowing all about the other's activities, perhaps down to the
molecule. the performance skill (under consideration: performing magic,
rather than play-acting) might be forever estranged from the occultist 
academic.

SAVE THE PLANET, KILL YOURSELF

boboroshi@satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director,
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
Satanism Archive: http://www.satanservice.org/

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Subject: Goetic Protections (was A letter from ....)
References: <3bf3169c.34099146@trialnews.peoplepc.com>
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50011128 VI! om

			BETTER SPREAD WHEN DEAD!

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
>Finding myself at something of a loss to fully satisfy our
>readers who insist that the 72 spirits of the Goetia are all
>Klippothic, evil and dangerous, and must be treated with such extreme
>caution that a physically "sealed" and insulated magick Circle is a
>necessity....

this is a straw man. however, the point you are attempting to refute is a 
valuable one. Savedow does indicate that the spirits are all evil/untrustworthy, 
but the grimoires seem to say in themselves that spirits like Vassago can be 
helpful.

Gnome quotes "Le Duc d'Richelieu" without identifying him except as a 'Secret Chief':
> ...concerning the problem of circle consecration. 

an interesting characterization. I'm not sure that I'd put it that way.
David Cantu's point about the easel legs intruding into the circle is
valuable from the perspective of the purist (because no connection ought
to be made between Triangle and Circle, without exceptions). dismissing
it as extremism isn't helpful to an understanding of the Arte, but
putting it in context (within your chosen cosmological and metaphysical
sets) could become a substantive discussion.

>...You and your colleagues take a monistic Tibetan, and
>Jungian, approach to what was originally a dualistic Western system
>of evocation deeply rooted in Christian and earlier Judaic symbolism.

this makes a great deal of sense. it is what I have said in response to
evaluating the historical precedence for the methods you're using. for
one of a classical perspective, they may find your methods overly
dangerous or problematic for some other reason. this is also what Cantu
was trying to say, though his imbalances sometimes occlude expression.

>As you may know, the Goetia is essentially "Christian" in origin

arguably anti-Christian or quasi-Christian. putting it in quotes is
probably the best way to go, agreed. it certainly isn't part of the
Christian religion, and the way that the spirits and the whole is
described don't really link in easily with Christian ethics or (at
least conservative) Christian motivations. more reasonably it was
someone who wanted to create revolutionary and/or controversial
"black book" material for scandal and/or supporting anti-Church 
activities. one might consider the construction of Black Masses to
be comparable.

>--so the lack of direct reference to the Hebrew Klippoth is obvious. 

sure, but reference to the qlippoth and residence to or identity with
it is a matter of *theoretical* assertion, not something logically
untenable. they don't seem to be described as qlippotic in character
consistently, though a ritualist might discover and thereafter decide
that the beings listed in the goetic Lesser Key are all evil. apparently
the term 'goetic' itself has a history of meaning 'evil' or 'black',
even though its origins may be cloudy and many terms have been utilized
this way by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as its spinoffs.

>They simply did not use the term because they were not familiar with it,
>preferring  the Tarterian and Psuedo-Dionisian conceptions. 

precisely.

>Be that as
>it may, those who must consider all of these entities as  "evil" and
>very dangerous, are not going to be attracted to the notion that they
>can use their own reflection in a mirror to summon such "monsters" to
>visible appearance, 

indeed, they may not believe that it is possible, they may think the
practice dangerous, or reckless. however, I'm not sure why anyone who
undertakes to create a circle of protection from these beings, who
wears weapons and vestments of magical power to protect themselves,
etc., could really be considered to regard them as "good" either.

>in spite of the fact that the Goetia clearly
>states that they are to appear in "Fair and Human Form without Horror
>of Deformity," 

this is a misstatement as I read it. the Lesser Key quite often repeats
the refrain that they may be *compelled to appear* in said forms, but
that doesn't mean that every spirit will do so *unless* compelled. also,
there is no mention that I ever saw in any goetic grimoire from Sloane
documents that mentions seeing their fair (or ugly) visage "in the mirror".

>a pertinent fact that Maestro Savedow, adopting a traditional Jewish 
>approach to an essentially Christian grimoire, chooses to overlook. 

as a Christian grimoire I don't see anything about it which would lend
it to being used to contact spirits friendly to Christianity. a great
number of the spirits are associated with non-Christian activities and
values. the first example I came across in a review of the alt.magick
demonref at

	http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/demonref

was:

#	andras
#	 He is a Great Marquis, appearing in the Form of an Angel
#	 with a Head like a Black Night Raven, riding upon a strong
#	 Black Wolf, and having a Sharp and Bright Sword
#	 flourished aloft in his hand. His Office is to sow Discords....
 
quoted from Crowley's edition of the goetia. a Christian would not
find summoning a spirit whose office was to sow discord acceptable
except if that Christian be up to no good. a directory for the summoning 
of such a list of spirits would be operating on thin ice to say the least.

not only that, my memory is that the Goetia is referred to in other
grimoires and in its own introduction (?) as containing the names
and characters of "evil spirits", quite specifically. the Christian
magician has little to justify such dabbling in "black magic" or,
more conventionally, "sorcery". if I'm mistaken here, please offer 
correction.

>However, all this considered, your dark mirror method is not
>going to appeal to the dualistic true  believers of either faith, 

unless they be inverso-religious, probably true, though I still see no
reason that the method itself is problematic per se. so what if one is
to face the demon in the mirror? to the stalwart magician, I suppose,
it merely represents a problem of volitional fortitude. consider the
demon-summoners in the fictional texts of "The Master of Five Magics"
and Asprin's "Myth Adventure" series. they fight the spirits will-to-
will and this quite often outside conventional magical protections.

the dualism of the faith would seem to preclude involvement with
spirits of an evil character, especially if there was nothing to
gain by their doing. consider the possibility of attempting to
*convert or save* these spirits to the One True Way, for example.
maybe the believing dualist Christian might consider these spirits
to be subject to the One True Christ (or Jehovah, or Michael or
Adonai, or whoever) and wish to use them in a manner coincident
with their faith (finding treasure they will subsequently donate
to their church, for example). whether they use the method you
have created is irrelevant with respect to this also. the mage 
might consider the spirits wholly evil and yet still engage in the 
nasty work "in the Name of the Lord."

>might use  
>and yet there might be some of these true believers who would try the
>Mirror Method simply because you, and your colleagues Maestroes
>Kraig, White and DuQuette either practice it or recommend it.

I think Kraig varies somewhat from Runyon's interpretation of the
ritual events, though he seems to have enjoyed a variation on
the mirror method, from what he indicates in email.

>      It is not technically possible for you to move the invoking
>pentagram ritual (i.e. your circle casting) or your septagram ritual
>(Sephirotic Gate opening) into a post circumambulation, post-set-up,
>sealed circle mode because you would  then be circumambulating an
>unconsecrated, un-opened  vortex....

I'd like to focus more strongly on this technical detail and will
take it up in another, practical, post.

>     Personally I recommend the old "Ban! Ban! Ban!" ritual from
>ancient Assyria (also a favorite of Vincent Price and Christopher
>Lee). You can of course abbreviate it because it  goes on for 47
>lines, but it does seal a circle!

LOL!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who is inspired by fictional 
portrayals of magical practice. :>

>    I hope this has been a help in clarifying the issue for both
>sides. With Vassago, and given your philosophical approach, these
>extra precautions were not necessary, 

apparently that would be the first order of contention. for those
who maintain that the Lesser Key deals exclusively with evil spirits,
even Vassago would be considered such, though probably weak and
easily subject to the direction of the mage.

contrariwise, did the author of the grimoire say "ignore all the
precautions when dealing with the good spirits listed herein"?

the demonref gives Crowley's listing for Vassago as:

#	vassago
#	 ...a Mighty Prince, being of the same nature as Agares.... 
#	 ...his office is to declare things Past and to Come, and to
#	 discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governeth 26
#	 Legions of Spirits. [GAC03]

it doesn't say "he's a nice guy" or "don't bother with the circle of
protection", etc.  here's what Agares says:

#       agares
#	 ...cometh up in the form of an old fair Man, riding upon a
#	 Crocodile, carrying a Goshawk upon his fist, and yet mild
#	 in appearance. He maketh them to run that stand still,
#	 and bringeth back runaways. ...and causeth Earthquakes.
#	 He hath under his government 31 Legions of Spirits. [GAC02]

mild in appearance. no mentions here of 'reliable and trustworthy'.

>but you should realize that if
>Maestro Kraig's popularization of this method justified your
>popularization of it as its originator....

apparently suggesting that it is not a REcreation but novel. no fault
in novelty, though historicity is valuable to identify.

		GET A VASECTOMY, PREVENT AN ABORTION

blessed beast!

boboroshi@satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director,
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
Satanism Archive: http://www.satanservice.org/

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Subject: Re: Goetic Protections (was A letter from ....)
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From: boboroshi@satanservice.org (SOD of the CoE)
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50011202 VI! om

			BETTER SPREAD WHEN DEAD!

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
>>>Finding myself at something of a loss to fully satisfy our
>>>readers who insist that the 72 spirits of the Goetia are all
>>>Klippothic, evil and dangerous, and must be treated with such extreme
>>>caution that a physically "sealed" and insulated magick Circle is a
>>>necessity....

boboroshi:
>> ...Savedow does indicate that the spirits are all evil/untrustworthy, 
>> but the grimoires seem to say in themselves that spirits like Vassago 
>> can be helpful.

Gnomedplume@aol.com (Gnome d Plume):
> ...Savedow's method is medieval, 

my impression was that the Arte (Goetia) is itself medieval. your text
below seems to confirm this.

> dualistic and completely separates the spirits from the individual 
> personality, even though Savedow is himself mature enough to realize 
> that they are not "physical" manifestations. 

to get back to the original point, however, even some qabalists suggest
that the qliphotic demons are psycho-spiritual entities. whether or not
they use the same terms (evil, qliphotic) is irrelevant. that the
grimoires themselves describe some of them as "Evil Spirits" on the one
hand and occasionally as "Good" is something of an inconsistency which
you may present that DISCOUNTS the connection between the two (because
the qliphotic demons are, by many, considered 'entirely evil', even if
they aren't). 

> Our Dark Mirror method is more in keeping with Tibetan tantric and 
> Jungian/Hermetic-NeoPlatonic Renaissance monistic conceptions 

yes, I understood that.

> which are frankly more sophisticated and philosophically mature. 

your assessment. opinions vary, which is why there is discussion about it. 

> The methods of protection in these two different systems, based on 
> strikingly divergent philosophies, are different in practical 
> application and will only be compared by those too misinformed to 
> realize the philosophical and psychological differences.

seems to me the same system (with variations) using different methods
of human-spirit interaction (which I also thought was valuably revised,
though my method differs from yours by virtue of proximation to the 
spirit; I sought to REMOVE the protective barriers between us -- something
Savedow and many other goetic magicians would call ludicrously insane --
I don't mind what they think of what I do, obviously).

>> Gnome quotes "Le Duc d'Richelieu" without identifying him except as 
>> a 'Secret Chief':

> Don't know who "Le Duc d'Richelieu" really (or unreally) was?
> (Must I "Hammer" the point home?)

I'm still collecting Hammer Films, sorry if I haven't seen the one to
which you are apparently referring.

>> David Cantu's point about the easel legs intruding into the circle is
>> valuable from the perspective of the purist (because no connection ought
>> to be made between Triangle and Circle, without exceptions). ...putting 
>> it in context (within your chosen cosmological and metaphysical sets) 
>> could become a substantive discussion.

> This only applies to those using the Savedow dualistic approach.

now there we agree! my impression is that the dualistic approach is how
Goetia has been interpreted by most of its expositors over the course 
of history. I'd like to learn more if this is an incomplete picture and
there are some kind of references to which I may turn that will
illustrate this.

> ...In using the Mirror's reflection of one's own face, the receiver 
> or skryer must make an intimate, personal connection with the spirit. 

yes, and from the dualistic approach of Savedow and his predecessors
this kind of 'intimate, personal connection' is extremely dangerous
and one step closer to INVOCATION (which is what *I* prefer). so you
see, I'm not pushing a paradigm here. I'm not agreeing with you or
disputing you, only trying to understand what methods are within what
cosmological or metaphysical sets, as I described in my quote above,
and to see where you and Savedow and whoever else fits into it all.

> In this case it is the philosophical principle of the Triangle and 
> the Circle, not the ugga-bugga of childish magical "Force Fields" 
> ala Buck Rogers; based on the fantasy that the Spirit is a totally 
> separate entity like an ET, or a werewolf, that can be held at bay 
> with proton rays, or wolfbane. We have matured a bit since 
> childhood, I hope.

slamming it as childish doesn't convince me of its inferiority or its
immaturity. I see the value of what you're doing, but I also understand
the cosmological mindset from which instructions like Savedow's
proceeds. the discussion could easily branch into a comparison between
Hermetic and natural magic (and has with consideration of other topics). 

the idea is that what is inscribed on the ritual chamber takes on the
spiritual power of the entities whose names are presented within the
diagrams. that is, like the worship of gods or communications with
other non-physical entities (whose existence as separate entities you
apparently think immature), the consideration of an order of beings
whose nature appears inimical to humans (which I would class as 'wild') 
and operations undertaken to interact with said beings is not a 
'philosophic principle' to those with this mindset so much as actual 
energizing of the ritual implements and sigils using the protection
of their (external?) god and some (external?) angels and formulae. 

in which case (contrasting with your description), the Triangle of Art
and the Circle of Protection are indeed energetic fields whose linkage
through faithful worship and penances *outside* the circle makes
possible the protection of the mage by virtue of a use of Power Names
(Michael, Tetragrammaton, etc.) and formulaic address.

you may wish to call these 'childish' (and I might agree), but that
doesn't mean it isn't traditional or rational, considering the great
number of folks who still consider the cosmology including (at least
apparently) separate non-physical beings to be relevant and actual.
 
>>dangerous or problematic for some other reason. this is also what Cantu
>>was trying to say, though his imbalances sometimes occlude expression.

>He had a very bad experience using a Savedow style of operation.
>He cannot get by that-- People  who do not  have  the strength and
>positive self image to face themselves in the mirror should not be
>doing our style of Goetia in any case---and IMO trying to discredit
>the Mirror method to please  those individuals too frightened or
>emotionally disturbed  to face their own demons, serves no purpose
>except to comfort them at the expense of a very valuable and very
>effective system of evocation.

are you saying that you do not agree that the more dualistic notion
has been until recently the traditional interpretation? I'd like to
discover the monist and other sources which I might compare with
Savedow other than those we've already discussed.

>>>As you may know, the Goetia is essentially "Christian" in origin
>>
>>arguably anti-Christian or quasi-Christian. putting it in quotes is
>>probably the best way to go, agreed. it certainly isn't part of the
>>Christian religion, and the way that the spirits and the whole is
>>described don't really link in easily with Christian ethics or (at
>>least conservative) Christian motivations. more reasonably it was
>>someone who wanted to create revolutionary and/or controversial
>>"black book" material for scandal and/or supporting anti-Church 
>>activities. one might consider the construction of Black Masses to
>>be comparable.

> ...This type of ceremonial magick--as apocryphal and theologically 
> disapproved as it was, was the absolute antithesis of Satanism. 
> God and the Angels were used to control the demons.

predominantly the Satanism of which you speak is fictional. the fact
that it was apocryphal and theologically disapproved was the major
point I was trying to make. this is the objective of the construction
of the Black Mass amongst *actual* Satanists -- deconditioning an
intense and overly-sensitive reaction to disapproved ritual activities.

in contrast, do you think that those who created these grimoires
actually used them? do you think they thought of themselves as
pioneers, somehow fabricating a spirit-directory whose members they
thought it actually wise to consult or control? 

it may be misleading to call it *strictly* apocryphal. Milton and
other nonscriptural writers had a tremendous effect on the views
of the Church and its membership. certainly theologically-disapproved.

the antithesis of Satanism would be the worship of stupidity and the
enshrinement of self-submission to arrogant authority. I don't hear
that this is in any way involved with Goetia, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
you've largely confused fictional Satanists with actual ones, from what 
I am able to see at this remove (having moderate exposure to your
expressions about Satanism yet no idea what you're referencing).

>>> --so the lack of direct reference to the Hebrew Klippoth is obvious. 
>>
>>sure, but reference to the qlippoth and residence to or identity with
>>it is a matter of *theoretical* assertion, not something logically
>>untenable. they don't seem to be described as qlippotic in character
>>consistently, though a ritualist might discover and thereafter decide
>>that the beings listed in the goetic Lesser Key are all evil. apparently
>>the term 'goetic' itself has a history of meaning 'evil' or 'black',
>>even though its origins may be cloudy and many terms have been utilized
>>this way by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as its spinoffs.
>
> They will be all evil if you want them to be.... 

will they all be angelic if I want them to be? how far can this be taken?

> ...we see the universe as a marvelous blend of all aspects, and
> we see the spirits of the Goetia rebellious elements of our own, and
> the universal, psyche. If you want muck, you'll get muck.

so the question must arise as to why elements of the psyche which are
rebellious would behave as you want them to, and does it make a difference
who it is that does the summoning as regards the accoutrements and the
rules by which the magician will abide? 

what I'm getting at here is something you haven't really addressed. for
the fearful Christian who believes themselves interacting with some kind
of anti-Christian demonic being, wouldn't they be better off conducting
themselves *as such*, even if they DO use your mirror method? I tend to
think of spirits as changing behaviour based on one's approach to them,
which seems to conform somewhat with your own psycho-mystical ideas with
respect to what and who they are, so I wondered if have considered that
a variation in approach may valuably reflect one's role with respect to
the world from which these beings originate and operate.

to put it more plainly, perhaps Savedow and Cantu will be better served
by adherence to strict protective mechanisms because they are less
likely to be treated with respect and pleasantness by the demons. for
those are actively aligning themselves, no protection may be necessary.
whereas, the way you proceed may work best for you, and likewise for me.

>> ...I'm not sure why anyone who
>>undertakes to create a circle of protection from these beings, who
>>wears weapons and vestments of magical power to protect themselves,
>>etc., could really be considered to regard them as "good" either.

>Some of these entities are evil and strong symbolic control and
>protection is necessary. That should be obvious. Standard
>philosophical ritual protection is used in all our operations.

why don't you dispense with the protections for the Good Spirits?

>>> in spite of the fact that the Goetia clearly states that they are 
>>> to appear in "Fair and Human Form without Horror of Deformity," 
>>
>> this is a misstatement as I read it.
>
> Then you didn't read it very carefully. The Goetia clearly states
> that they first appear in the symbolic form 

that was my point, thanks for affirming it.

> and they are then commanded to appear "In fair and human form with 
> horror or deformity and without delay"..... 

agreed regarding the practical instructions provided by the grimoire.
here it is again:
>> the Lesser Key quite often repeats
>> the refrain that they may be *compelled to appear* in said forms, but
>> that doesn't mean that every spirit will do so *unless* compelled. 

>> also, there is no mention that I ever saw in any goetic grimoire from 
>> Sloane documents that mentions seeing their fair (or ugly) visage 
>> "in the mirror".

> ...If you'd read that I wouldn't have had anything to discover back 
> in 1969, would I?"

that's not my point. it is a major omission should that be considered to
have been an original, or previous and lost, method, in which case I'd
think there'd be mention. no criticism of your discovery intended, only
a remark about the history of the methods involved and what is implied
by the text itself (rather than by the diagrams and their occasional 
ambiguous or unusual comments).

>>>a pertinent fact that Maestro Savedow, adopting a traditional Jewish 
>>>approach to an essentially Christian grimoire, chooses to overlook. 

>>as a Christian grimoire I don't see anything about it which would lend
>>it to being used to contact spirits friendly to Christianity. 

>...The above is self-contradictory and pointless. The Goetia was
>an "underground" apocryphal grimoire that derives from a Christian
>culture. It certainly does not reflect "common Christian" values. 

thus my comments about its rebellious character (comparable to what
might be done, modernly especially, by Satanists constructing some
kind of Black Mass -- to elaborate: modern Satanists, unlike the
fictional ones used to scare religion into people and sell occult
horror novels, create rebellious and nonstandard rituals, though
these may vary depending on the individual and hir background; if
someone was a Hindu, for example, and wished to make a Black Mass
to decondition themselves from childhood upbringing, then they
might invert elements of ritual with which they were familiar, or
seek a nonstandard, personal objective in a ritual which seems to
them to be a conventional style, no matter to WHAT religion any of 
it may pertain -- probably none).
 
>But it is also not Satanic.

in the way you mean this I agree. I'd compare it to the activities
of a Lion Tamer who goes into the jungle with whip and gun in hand
to interact with the great big cats. she is not interested in
worshipping the beast, only in some kind of protected interaction.
most modern Satanists don't worship much of anything, other than
themselves.

>They are referred to as "Evil Spirits" in the preliminary
>abstract. The actual descriptions don't often  bear this out.

why do you think that is true?

> ...Controlling demons by divine power is the philosophical rationale 
> of medieval ceremonial magick.

that was also my impression, and my point in asking about Savedow
above. if he has a medieval mindset, perhaps it conforms to the
context from which the material arose.

re DMKraig:
>I've talked with some of his students. He teaches the facial
>reflection method.

very interesting! does significant variation from your methods occur
otherwise, or is he operating merely with a different theology?

>>LOL!
>>I'm glad I'm not the only one who is inspired by fictional 
>>portrayals of magical practice. :>

>Obviously you  didn't you recognize "The Duc"? And as for "Ban,
>Ban, Ban" well that is not fictional.

it should be very obvious by now that it was entirely lost on me. sorry. :>
for all I knew you were summoning some spirit in your circle and then
channelling the interaction directly into your keyboard. I've done that
before, so couldn't be sure.

>>apparently that would be the first order of contention. for those
>>who maintain that the Lesser Key deals exclusively with evil spirits,
>>even Vassago would be considered such, though probably weak and
>>easily subject to the direction of the mage.

>Evil is in the eye of the beholder---  they are rebellious,
>fallen, capricious, disorganized--and some are dangerous. 

I can understand rebellious, capricious, and disorganized. how would
you (from your operating mindframe) define "fallen" here? to save you
some trouble, I'm aware of the stories of fallen angels in Noah, Enoch,
Milton, and a variety of other sources. I'm trying to understand how
it applies within a less dualistic context such as you are presenting. 

>They are also mythological archetypes in the Collective Unconscious 
>and fragments of the Jungian Shadow. 

so, as you see it, combining them would complete the Shadow in some
way? do you agree with the bulk of the speculation concerning how one
ought best interact with the Shadow, what it includes, etc.? could
you say more about how you see the Shadow? it is one of my most
favourite subjects (perhaps this goes without saying).

> As a self-styled "Satanist" 

there is no other kind of Satanist than self-styled. being 'other-
styled' defeats the principles of individualism inherent to the path.

> your prissy attitude about how awful and terrible they are 
> frankly amuses me.

good. :> I'd much prefer you amused by your misperception of me than
offended. at least then you'll not take me as being antagonistic.
I haven't really said how I consider these spirits. the fact that
I have constructed INVOKING methods for them and carried out more
than one of these does not indicate a prissy approach, however. as
I said before, I'm trying to understand the whole subject, not
dwell overly or biasedly upon any single individual's beliefs.

>>the demonref gives Crowley's listing for Vassago as:
>>
>>#	vassago
>>#	 ...a Mighty Prince, being of the same nature as Agares.... 
>>#	 ...his office is to declare things Past and to Come, and to
>>#	 discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governeth 26
>>#	 Legions of Spirits. [GAC03]
>>
>>it doesn't say "he's a nice guy" or "don't bother with the circle of
>>protection", etc.  
>
>The actual quote on Vassago reads: 
>
>"(3.) Vassago.--- The Third Spirit is a Mighty Prince, being of the
>same nature as Agares. He is called Vassago. This Spirit is of a Good
>Nature, and his office is to declare things Past and to come, and to
>discover all things Hid or Lost. And he governrth 26 legions of
>Spirits, and this is his Seal."
>
>from Lemegeton vel Clavicula Solomonis Regis--Goetia
>translated by S. L. M. Mathers, edited by Aleister Crowley
>(Also word-for-word in Sloane MS. 2731 British Library).

thanks for the elaboration. I was consulting a short-hand reproduction
of the document to which you referred (and I provided my reference URL). 
I think must have left out the part about the Good Nature because it 
contradicted the overall description of the beings contactable through 
the use of the grimoire. I'll seriously consider revising that.

so it does say Vassago is "of a Good Nature". does this mean that you
*could* omit the protections and interact with him directly and feel
safe in so doing? does it mean that you could INVOKE the spirit and 
suffer no ill consequences from the change in practice?

thanks for your patience. :>

blessed beast!

		PUSHING UP DAISIES IS THE FIRST STEP TO REFORESTATION

boboroshi@satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director,
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
Satanism Archive: http://www.satanservice.org/

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