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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick From: newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT) Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD Date: 4 Mar 2003 06:29:20 -0800 "Fr. A.o.C."wrote in message news:<3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net>... > Satyr wrote: > > > > newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT) writes: > > > > > Greetings Re and Frater AOC > > > > > > The crucial point of the Golden Dawn mystery is the resurrection. > > > > Highly subjective, even if true. Moreover, the 'resurrection' occurs > > in the RR+AC, and therefore by definition plays no part in the Golden > > Dawn proper. Nothing past 4 = 7 appears in the Cypher Manuscript. > > Without convincing evidence to the contrary, the emphasis placed on > > death and resurrection represents foreign material grafted onto the > > original system, in all probability by Mathers. > > Thank you, Satyr, for making the same comment I was about to make. > > With all respect to Frater Jean, the resurrection mythology of the > RRetAC is really a fundamental deficiency in the 2nd Order system > devised (as Satyr points out) by Mathers. It is the root of so many > problems that have arisen (forgive he pun) over the years with nearly > every GD order, including Mathers' own HOGD. > > Not that being "reborn" is not a useful magical formula. In fact, the > OSOGD uses the Osirian death-and-rebirth mythological cycle as the basis > for the Portal Grade. But we identify Osiris with the Green Man, the god > of vegetation (as did the ancient Egyptians), so his story is a > microcosm of the birth-death-rebirth cycle of nature. > > The old Order placed their 'resurrection' in the 5=6 Adeptus Minor > Grade, which follows the Portal, and directly related it to the > Christian mythology. As such it was not a *bridge* to the 5=6, but > rather the *goal* of the 5=6 and in fact, the whole goal of their RRetAC > system -- to identify the Aspirant with Jesus Christ. > > Do I even need to lay out all the psychological problems that can arise > from identifying a person, especially in the charged atmosphere of > powerful magical rites, with the Christian Messiah? Especially if that > person was raised as a Christian? > > Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that > their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this > regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial > magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't > be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order > together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How > can there NOT be problems with this? > > The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the > Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which > Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per > se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to > the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly > describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one. > > Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign -- > but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman > is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so > problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs. A gathering of fifty-some-odd > Stars is a constellation. Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be > only one!") Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions. > > > To my mind, any crucial element of the Golden Dawn is to be found in > > the Hall of the Neophytes, as it is outlined in the Cypher Manuscript > > itself. It is this ritual formula which constitutes the basis for all > > that follows. > > Again, I agree 100%. The 0=0 Hall of the Neophytes is the foundation > upon which all of the Golden Dawn's magick is based. The same formula is > used for all of their practical magick instruction, as described in the > Z.2 documents. > > - Fr. A.o.C. Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony. This is a magical destruction/initiation of the candidate, which sympathetically and mythically is too that of Osiris. This is why, the Golden Dawn places Osiris in the East - after all as previously mentioned Osiris is a recurrected god. During neophyte the candidate begins to receive the influx of the Osiris/Christ current which is absolutely necessary for the candidate to obtain upper Malkuth (in compelete embroyic form) by the time he reaches Zelator. With respect to my friend Frater AoC, I personally cannot see how it is possible to ascend the Tree [at least past Yesod] without this inner-transmutative ingredient being set in motion, right from the beginning. LLL Jean Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc72.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 206 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1046812315 12.233.48.58 (Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:11:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:11:55 GMT Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:11:55 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:339803 alt.magick.order:7309 alt.magick.tyagi:38331 alt.pagan.magick:36372 Secretary ECT wrote: > Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is > disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the > disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony. Here's where our symbolic journey of the Aspirant deviates from the system Westcott devised, based on the Ani Papyrus ('Book of the Dead'). Ours is NOT based on the Ani Papyrus. There are a number of reasons for this, based on 100 more years of Egyptology that was unavailable to the old leaders of the Order in the 19th century, and our own insights based on that knowledge. We know now that Ani was a merchant-scribe (what we would call a bookkeeper or accountant, most likely). The scenes depicted in his Book of the Dead are NOT universal. Every "book of the dead" ("Per Em Heru") was unique, prepared for a particular person. Ani was not an Adept or Priest, he was a "normal" citizen -- wealthy for sure, but not an Initiate. Subsequent finds of other depiction's are more applicable to the journey of an Aspirant toward Adepthood. There are many other instances of the Weighing of the Heart extant but Ani's, though being the first copy of the Per Em Heru discovered in modern times, it is the most widely disseminated version. However, when compared to other versions prepared for other classes of people striking dissimilarities emerge. One easily available example is on the cover of the second volume of Her-Bak (by Isha Schwallier de Lubics, Inner Traditions International). The vignette is from the Temple of Der-el-Medinet. From the image alone it is clear the deceased is a priest (viz. garb and holding a feather indicating he is already 'justified'). Instead of Isis and Nephthys standing beside Osiris on the Dais, they are down with the Deceased making gestures of Hailing. The entire mood of the piece is different. Rather than an imperious 'look who the cat dragged in' attitude towards the Deceased as in Ani, it is as though Isis and Nephthys are saying "Hey Boss! Look who we found outside!". Every one seems happy to see the Priest. Horus and Anubis are holding the Heart and Feather in balance, Thoth is ticking him off His list. I went to the Treasures of Egypt touring show last year, currently on tour in the USA from the British Museum, when it appeared at the Museum of Fine Arts in San Francisco. Along with the 'weighing of the heart' (and the post-weighing scene of the afterlife) of Ani there was a 'weighing' scene from the Papyrus of Hor (a priest) where the heart was being weighed against a little man-like figure, and Ma'at was standing behind Hor with her hands raised in the sign of rejoicing. Again, the priest held a Feather in both hands, indicating he was already justified, and Anubis is holding the scales level with both hands. Thoth is ticking him off his list, and Sobek the Crocodile-demon is not even present! (The number from the museum collection was EA10479/6 and the exhibit catalog number was 105.) So based on this new evidence, we must conclude that: 1. Ani's book of the dead is NOT a universally applicable vignette. 2. Ani was NOT an Adept or Priest, so his symbolic journey has little to do with the symbolism of the journey toward Adepthood, because... 3. Other papyri showing the Hall of Double Truth when applied to the journey of a Priest or Adept are significantly different in their symbolism. If we MUST use the Hall of Double Truth as a metaphor (and our position is that this is NOT a 'must' -- see below), then we should at least use one that applies to an Adept, rather than a merchant. Furthermore, the question must be raised of whether or not to even apply the Per Em Heru (Book of the Dead) to the 0=0 Hall. It's suspected that the line in the Cipher's that refer to "Egyptian writing" on the Pillars may even be a later edit by Westcott. (At least two versions of that Cipher page exist, with conflicting words regarding these "Egyptian writings".) There is no other mention of the Per Em Heru in the text of the 0=0 manuscript, nor of any Egyptian godforms whatsoever. So the originators of the GD system as described in the Ciphers did not apply Ani to the 0=0; that was a later development of Westcott and Mathers, most likely inspired by the parallels between it and the Christ mythology that were expounded by E. Wallis Budge, who was their contemporary. Today, Egyptologists have an opinion of Budge similar to modern psychologists' opinion of Sigmund Freud -- as in, they don't think very highly of his theories and interpretations, even though he was an early pioneer in the field. With due respect to Frater Jean and his Order, my point is not to say that the Magical Formula devised by Westcott and Mathers (and used by the ECT) is not workable and valuable. The point is that it is not REQUIRED in the meta-context of the Golden Dawn system -- that other Formulae drawn from Egyptian mythology are possible that can also yield the desired result of elevating the Aspirant to Adepthood, and still have no conflict with the GD system overall. > This is a magical > destruction/initiation of the candidate, which sympathetically and > mythically is too that of Osiris. This is why, the Golden Dawn places > Osiris in the East - after all as previously mentioned Osiris is a > recurrected god. During neophyte the candidate begins to receive the > influx of the Osiris/Christ current which is absolutely necessary for > the candidate to obtain upper Malkuth (in compelete embroyic form) by > the time he reaches Zelator. With respect to my friend Frater AoC, I > personally cannot see how it is possible to ascend the Tree [at least > past Yesod] without this inner-transmutative ingredient being set in > motion, right from the beginning. I'd like to offer a critique of this position (with advice from Frater IO), as follows: First off the idea that the Neophyte is a death and resurrection ritual is not required, UNLESS one is basing an entire esoteric system on this concept (as in Christianity) and one needs to "tie in" death/ressurection overall. In fact, in the classic GD, that is the place of the Portal and 5=6, so I must disagree with that premise in the first place. 2nd, During the 0=0 the Neophyte is exposed to the Light In Extension (L.V.X.), via the Hierophant/Lord of Initiation, and all of the symbolism of the Hall relates to Light breaking forth in Darkness. There are parallels here to the Eastern esoteric systems with the "opening of the Third Eye Chakra". This is far more appropriate to the beginning of the Aspirant's symbolic journey. Again, not slain and risen -- that comes much later. 3rd, The slain and risen formula is common on the planet but not universal. There are many other formulae. The point we have taken from the Equinox of the Gods was to inform us of the shift from the slain and risen to the crowned and conquering child for our system. Neither is this symbolism universal, but it is the point of the New Aeon concept expounded by Thelema and adopted by our Order. 4: So then, we must ask the question: what is this attachment to the slain and risen/Christ formula? As Pagans, this looks to us like the same old imperialism, if anyone insists there is ONLY ONE solution/path, and all others are incorrect or even 'evil'. At the very least, this indicates a lack of imagination and study. There are SO many ways of approaching the task of initiation, in the same way that in Nature there are so many ways of achieving the same end, She being omni-accommodative. 5: Death is only the beginning, being the end of what was. Our view of Initiation is to view it as a BEGINNING, not an end in itself. The real challenge is what comes after -- the reassembly of the aspirant into something functional, who can do their Will in the real world. In the Olde Aeon, the emphasis is on the death and the loss. We take that as given -- we understand that in this process something dies, but our focus is on that which arises and GOES FORTH BY DAY, thus our symbols are the rising Sun and the Child; all possibility, all potential. But that potential must be cultivated for it to fulfill its destiny, thus the purpose of the Grade Initiations. So, if not the Hall of Double Truth as the symbolic vignette of the 0=0 Hall, then what? Briefly, our 0=0 Hall is not based on the symbolism of the "Hall of Double Truth", but rather on the Barque of Millions of Years, in which Horus rides in the stern, with Ma'at at amidships, and Set in the bow with his spear, slaying the Apis-demon that threatens to devour the Barque. In this mythological cycle (from the 19th Dynasty), Set is indeed the protector of the Barque (and our Hall), without whom the demon of "Nothingness" would devour the Sun and the Night would be eternal. So our 0=0 Hall is the Ship of the Sun, helmed by Ra-Hoor and crewed by his fellow Deities, as they make their journey through the Night, conquering the dangers and passing the Pylons of the Hours along the way, until they break forth unto the Golden Dawn, the rising of the Sun with coming of the New Day. In an upcoming essay being written for the OSOGD on-line library, Fr. IO puts it this way: "Since [our] Hall of Initiation is not presided over by Osiris who's proper place is in the Hall of Great Truth, that layer of the 0=0 rite (that was added on to the basic form of the Ciphers) will need to change. The most logical setting for the Son of Ra is at the helm of His father's boat, as is traditional. Being a long-time sailor myself, this is an especially fruitful image. The boat symbolizes the vehicle that takes us on the river, the long journey through darkness into light. The Hierophant is the captain of the boat, accompanied by His crew of fellow gods. The passenger is the Sun, Ra-Hoor Himself, but also is the self of the aspirant, aspiring to become a crewmember on the ship of Ra called "The Barque of Millions of Years". Initiation is to repeat the cosmogonic process with the Aspirant as the world being created and simultaneously, the deity doing the creation. Similarly, it is the process of being welcomed as a member of the crew, which is being welcomed as a member of the Order, the company of those traveling towards 'the light' (literally the 'golden dawn' of a new day.) "One other advantage of this scheme is its ability to reintegrate Set into the company of the gods after a bitter absence. By placing Horus in the East we leave a vacancy in the West. With Ra-Hoor at the helm of the Barque of Ra, we can remember the old 19th Dynasty telling of the story that places Set at the prow (with His spear) to fend off the Serpent Apep, who would devour the Barque and keep Ra from being reborn again at the dawn. Set defeats this 'lurker on the threshold' permitting the Sun to rise. As Hierus in the 0=0 hall, Set truly shows His power as the Master of Darkness. This corrects the problem well understood by the psychologically inclined of the 'return of the repressed'. That which is split off and denied will rise again later in new form to wreak havoc. By including Set, the Shadow is given a place to be projected. With Set in the Hall, the Shadow has it place and is brought into the service of the evolving soul." - Fr. A.o.C. "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to Man as it is, infinite. For Man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." --- William Blake Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E659DA4.939D1C55@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> <3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1046846885 12.233.48.58 (Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:48:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:48:05 GMT Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:48:05 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:339916 alt.magick.order:7314 alt.magick.tyagi:38413 alt.pagan.magick:36379 Brett wrote: > > Fr. A.o.C. wrote in message > news:3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net... > > > > I went to the Treasures of Egypt touring show last year, currently on > > tour in the USA from the British Museum, when it appeared at the Museum > > of Fine Arts in San Francisco. Along with the 'weighing of the heart' > > (and the post-weighing scene of the afterlife) of Ani there was a > > 'weighing' scene from the Papyrus of Hor (a priest) where the heart was > > being weighed against a little man-like figure, and Ma'at was standing > > behind Hor with her hands raised in the sign of rejoicing. Again, the > > priest held a Feather in both hands, indicating he was already > > justified, and Anubis is holding the scales level with both hands. Thoth > > is ticking him off his list, and Sobek the Crocodile-demon is not even > > present! (The number from the museum collection was EA10479/6 and the > > exhibit catalog number was 105.) > > > > Dang! I went to see the exhibit last friday. Wish I'd known enough to take > that close of a look at the various pages they showed and make the > comparisons. So overwhelmed with all the stuff that I didn't look that > closely at any one thing. In the room where it was displayed in San Francisco, the Ani took up one wall (it having the most intact pages), and on the wall to the left (while facing it), was the Hor papyrus. There were also quite a few steles depicting Horus as Ra-Hoor nearby. > Now I may have to go back, if only to look at this. They're here for > another week and a half. It's worth two trips for sure. I found the steles and papyri that were at various stages of completion to be fascinating; being a bit of a draftsman myself, I was very interested at the glimpse into the process that the artists used, and how very much it was like the way things are still done thousands of years later. - Fr. A.o.C. Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!195.40.4.120.MISMATCH!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E661C23.CF1684BD@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> <3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1046879266 12.233.48.58 (Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:47:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:47:46 GMT Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:47:46 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:339965 alt.magick.order:7315 alt.magick.tyagi:38444 alt.pagan.magick:36383 Secretary ECT wrote: > > "Fr. A.o.C." wrote in message news:<3E65169A.9B1EA7ED@slip.net>... > > Secretary ECT wrote: > > > > > Taking it right back to basics; at the 0=0 level the candidate is > > > disassembled. That is the candidate shares sympathetically the > > > disassembling of Ani during the neophyte ceremony. > > > > Here's where our symbolic journey of the Aspirant deviates from the > > system Westcott devised, based on the Ani Papyrus ('Book of the Dead'). > > Ours is NOT based on the Ani Papyrus. There are a number of reasons for > > this, based on 100 more years of Egyptology that was unavailable to the > > old leaders of the Order in the 19th century, and our own insights based > > on that knowledge. I must point out that I made an error in my previous reply: I took Fr. Jean's remarks about the "disassembly" in the 0=0 as being a description of the death and ressurection forumla found in the Ani papyrus and in the old Order's 5=6. I misunderstood and replied according to my misunderstanding. My apologies to Fr. Jean for my error in this regard. - Fr. A.o.C. Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E6652DE.B0D0258E@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E412F6D.6020707@cox.net> <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> <3E6265E9.3050009@cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 138 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:31:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1046892670 209.204.150.165 (Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:31:10 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:31:10 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340000 alt.magick.order:7316 alt.magick.tyagi:38480 aethyr augoeides wrote: > > Fr. A.o.C. wrote: > > > > > newzion@xtra.co.nz (Secretary ECT) (Jean) writes: > > > > > > > > The crucial point of the Golden Dawn mystery is the resurrection. > > > > With all respect to Frater Jean, the resurrection mythology of the > > RRetAC is really a fundamental deficiency in the 2nd Order system > > devised [...] by Mathers. It is the root of so many > > problems that have arisen (forgive he pun) over the years with nearly > > every GD order, including Mathers' own HOGD. > > > > Not that being "reborn" is not a useful magical formula. In fact, the > > OSOGD uses the Osirian death-and-rebirth mythological cycle as the basis > > for the Portal Grade. But we identify Osiris with the Green Man, the god > > of vegetation (as did the ancient Egyptians), so his story is a > > microcosm of the birth-death-rebirth cycle of nature. > > no christian concepts lurking in FIOAF, eh? ;) > > > > The old Order placed their 'resurrection' in the 5=6 Adeptus Minor > > Grade, which follows the Portal, and directly related it to the > > Christian mythology. As such it was not a *bridge* to the 5=6, but > > rather the *goal* of the 5=6 and in fact, the whole goal of their RRetAC > > system -- to identify the Aspirant with Jesus Christ. > > > > Do I even need to lay out all the psychological problems that can arise > > from identifying a person, especially in the charged atmosphere of > > powerful magical rites, with the Christian Messiah? > Yes. A word on inflation of the ego is in order. However, strictly > biblical NT and gnostic sources would also have us see christ in > > 1) the poor > 2) ourselves > 3) just about everywhere Aethyr makes an important point. It leads me to make two comments; 1) There are some who see in the GD and related systems a counterpart of the dominant Christian paradigm (and this is especially true of GD members who were raised in Christian families). As an outsider to Christianity (i was raised in an atheist / agnostic / culturally Jewish family), i have always found the "Christ formula" for fraternal orders to be problematic, for exactly the reasons Aethyr stated: it encourages egoistic claims. That is why i joined an order of Co-Freemasonry, where there is an OT slant on the ceremony, with no bodily resurrection or messianic role per se. 2) Those whose cultural Christian conditioning leads them to see in the story of Christ the same pointer that Aethyr makes toward "the poor" may well benefit from comparing the GD with the Francican order or, much more cogently, with the religion known as Lukumi or Santeria, especially as practiced in Cuba and the Americas. In Santeria, Lazarus of Dives (a beggar whose tale Christ relates) is elevated to the role of deity as a syncretized "mask" for the Nigerian (West African) deity Babalu-aye, who embodies disease, poverty, and suffering. > > Especially if that person was raised as a Christian? > > > > Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that > > their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this > > regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial > > magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't > > be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order > > together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How > > can there NOT be problems with this? > > Depends on yer idea of a 'messiah' i suppose. generally, i can see your > point, of course, the common view of christianity conforms to this view > you are promulgating. Exactly! The "COMMON" view of Christianity. Perhaps the problem with "too many messiahs" in such GD-like orders springs from their retention of a monotheistic outlook. In a polytheistic religious culture, there is room for plenty of self expression in other roles -- including roles for women that are not socially dependent upon the central male roles. Again, speaking only of those religions that incorporate Christian elements and a "lodge" like structure acquired from, or referential to, Freemasonry, Cuban Santeria comes to mind, as does Haitian Voodoo. The latter is highly influenced by Freemasonry, and, while it works with a different pantheon of African deities than Santeria (having come from a different region of Africa), there are enough similarities between the two African diaspora religions, and between them and the ancient Egyptian pantheon that the GD/OTO works with that a comparative study is well worth the time. > > The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the > > Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which > > Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per > > se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to > > the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly > > describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one. > > so the materials you've posted seem (after perusing them a little, not a > lot) would seem to suggest. but maybe we need to differentiate between > 'churchianity' and 'christianity.' afterall, even some people's brand of > thelema seems disturbingly close to the meek and mild/ > fire-and-brimstone BS bandied about so commonly in the South (for > instance). Agreed. > > Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign -- > > but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman > > is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so > > problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs. > > unless people take an idiot view of Ra, as 'Lord of Vengeance' :-) > > A gathering of fifty-some-odd Stars is a constellation. > > Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be > > only one!") > > Dogmas are mutually exclusive. > > "I'm the only one' - Tigger > 'Yes, but each one of us is the only one, as well' > - Tales of Pooh Narrator. > > > Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions. This is a good point, too. It is one that Freemasonry avoided, by never invoking the NT Messiah formula in the first place. In fact, an argument might be made (i'm not making it, only proposing it) that the OSOGD is restoring a Freemasonic element to the GD that was eliminated by the Christian / Rosicrucian HOGD members for their own Christian purposes. cat yronwode Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E669D7A.1B96CFE0@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E412F6D.6020707@cox.net> <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> <3E6265E9.3050009@cox.net> <3E6652DE.B0D0258E@luckymojo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 136 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1046912378 12.233.48.58 (Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:59:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:59:38 GMT Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:59:39 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340038 alt.magick.order:7318 alt.magick.tyagi:38512 catherine yronwode wrote: > 1) There are some who see in the GD and related systems a counterpart > of the dominant Christian paradigm (and this is especially true of GD > members who were raised in Christian families). As an outsider to > Christianity (i was raised in an atheist / agnostic / culturally > Jewish family), i have always found the "Christ formula" for fraternal > orders to be problematic, for exactly the reasons Aethyr stated: it > encourages egoistic claims. That is why i joined an order of > Co-Freemasonry, where there is an OT slant on the ceremony, with no > bodily resurrection or messianic role per se. The same sensitivity kept me from pursuing any of the 'old school' magickal orders, even though I cut my teeth on the methods of the GD, taking what I found useful and personalizing it. That process eventually led me to Chaos Magick. Those who have worked with me in that realm can tell you that I still used much of the GD/Thelema foundation with a non-conformist spin. But as a Pagan I couldn't embrace the the Christian elements, until the OSOGD came along. > 2) Those whose cultural Christian conditioning leads them to see in > the story of Christ the same pointer that Aethyr makes toward "the > poor" may well benefit from comparing the GD with the Francican order > or, much more cogently, with the religion known as Lukumi or Santeria, > especially as practiced in Cuba and the Americas. In Santeria, Lazarus > of Dives (a beggar whose tale Christ relates) is elevated to the role > of deity as a syncretized "mask" for the Nigerian (West African) deity > Babalu-aye, who embodies disease, poverty, and suffering. The GD was always an elitist system -- all of the original members were solidly middle class or above, with a very few "blue collar" exceptions (R.A. Gilbert also stresses this point) -- much more so than even a typical Freemason's lodge. Charitable works were simply not part of their agenda. The only possible exceptions were Annie Hornniman who, while a 'philanthropist', confined her charity to support of the arts (and letting the Matherses sponge off her for a decade or so). And Florence Farr ended her life as the headmistress of the first school for girls in Sri Lanka, though she had long since resigned from the Order by then. > > > Especially if that person was raised as a Christian? > > > > > > Think about it. One of the recurring problems with GD Orders is that > > > their upper echelons become raging egotists. Mathers' attitude in this > > > regard is legendary, as is Crowley's. Anyone attracted to ceremonial > > > magick is already possessed of a fair share of hubris, or they wouldn't > > > be able to make it work. Toss fifty-some-odd Adepts of that Order > > > together and you've got fifty-some-odd Messiahs in the same room. How > > > can there NOT be problems with this? > > > > Depends on yer idea of a 'messiah' i suppose. generally, i can see your > > point, of course, the common view of christianity conforms to this view > > you are promulgating. > > Exactly! The "COMMON" view of Christianity. > > Perhaps the problem with "too many messiahs" in such GD-like orders > springs from their retention of a monotheistic outlook. Give the lady a cigar! > In a polytheistic religious culture, there is room for plenty of self > expression in other roles -- including roles for women that are not > socially dependent upon the central male roles. Again, speaking only > of those religions that incorporate Christian elements and a "lodge" > like structure acquired from, or referential to, Freemasonry, Cuban > Santeria comes to mind, as does Haitian Voodoo. The latter is highly > influenced by Freemasonry, and, while it works with a different > pantheon of African deities than Santeria (having come from a > different region of Africa), there are enough similarities between the > two African diaspora religions, and between them and the ancient > Egyptian pantheon that the GD/OTO works with that a comparative study > is well worth the time. I've made exactly the same point myself. Polytheism allows for non-exclusive religious/philosophical viewpoints. > > > The only reason to induce this kind of identification on a member of the > > > Order is if the Order is a reflection of the Christian religion, which > > > Mathers' RRetAC certainly was. There is no mention of Christianity per > > > se in the Ciphers; the word "Christ" appears only once, a reference to > > > the 'caduceus' as a source of miraculous healing. The Ciphers clearly > > > describe a Pagan magickal system, not a Christian one. > > > > so the materials you've posted seem (after perusing them a little, not a > > lot) would seem to suggest. but maybe we need to differentiate between > > 'churchianity' and 'christianity.' afterall, even some people's brand of > > thelema seems disturbingly close to the meek and mild/ > > fire-and-brimstone BS bandied about so commonly in the South (for > > instance). > > Agreed. > > > > Our order identifies the 5=6 with Ra-Horus -- a "king", a Sovereign -- > > > but more importantly, with the sun -- a Star ("Every man and every woman > > > is a Star.") This kind of magickal 'identity' is not nearly so > > > problematic as fifty-some-odd Messiahs. > > > > unless people take an idiot view of Ra, as 'Lord of Vengeance' > > :-) See my comments about the Buddhas of Wrathful Compassion. > > > A gathering of fifty-some-odd Stars is a constellation. > > > Messiahs are mutually exclusive ("There can be > > > only one!") > > > > Dogmas are mutually exclusive. > > > > "I'm the only one' - Tigger > > 'Yes, but each one of us is the only one, as well' > > - Tales of Pooh Narrator. > > > > > Not so with Stars, of which there are untold billions. > > This is a good point, too. It is one that Freemasonry avoided, by > never invoking the NT Messiah formula in the first place. In fact, an > argument might be made (i'm not making it, only proposing it) that the > OSOGD is restoring a Freemasonic element to the GD that was eliminated > by the Christian / Rosicrucian HOGD members for their own Christian > purposes. I'm glad you see it that way, Cat. We really do see our work as 'restoring' much of what was embodied in the original current, which (according to my own 'conspiracy theory', was hijacked by European Rosicrucians and perverted for their own dogmatic ends. "We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called 'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." - Fr. A.o.C. "We are Homer of Borg. Resistance is... Ooo, doughnuts!" Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3E679AA0.C2F44533@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD References: <3E412F6D.6020707@cox.net> <3E53E68C.15C31A6E@slip.net> <3E579DF8.2020205@cox.net> <3E582D32.AFB46C5D@slip.net> <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E6252E8.BB23CBD3@slip.net> <3E6265E9.3050009@cox.net> <3E6652DE.B0D0258E@luckymojo.com> <3E669D7A.1B96CFE0@slip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 136 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1046977184 12.233.48.58 (Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:59:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:59:44 GMT Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:59:44 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340121 alt.magick.order:7322 alt.magick.tyagi:38573 Satyr wrote: > "Fr. A.o.C." writes: > > > I'm glad you see it that way, Cat. We really do see our work as > > 'restoring' much of what was embodied in the original current, which > > (according to my own 'conspiracy theory', was hijacked by European > > Rosicrucians and perverted for their own dogmatic ends. > > > > "We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called > > 'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." > > An interesting point, but I'm having some difficulty seeing the > "original current" somehow arising independent of European > Rosicrucianism. Care to elaborate on that a bit? If the Cypher > Manuscript is not an expression of Rosicrucian thought then what is > it? Well, that depends on what one considers to be "original current". To my way of thinking, the original current of the GD consists of: Egyptian and Hellenic Paganism: the godforms of Egypt and Greece (toss in the Thracians of the Chaldean Oracles too, which the Rosicrucians incorrectly attributed to Zorasterism) figure largely in the system described by the Ciphers. Aside from the planetary designations used by both, it's ridiculous to say that ANY form of Paganism was derived from the Rosicrucians. Qabbala and the Hebrew Magical Language: The Qabbala is, of course, a product of Hebrew mysticism, but even that was a product of the greater Semetic and Cannanite Pagan culture -- the roots of which go back to the Assyrians, the Sumerians and the Egyptians -- of which Judaism was only a part. Even in the form of "Hermetic" Qabbala, it's roots are the same. Christian Europe in Medieval and even Renaissance times was more concerned with persecuting the "Christ-killer" Jews than enshrining their esoteric thought, unless the stole it and perverted it first. The only good thing they had to say about Judaism was that is was the "precursor" to the True Faith of Christianity. Astrology, Tarot, Geomancy: hardly an original products of Rosicrucianism. Enochian: clearly a product of the work of two Christians, Dee and Kelley. But they preceded the 'birth' of Rosicrucianism by almost 100 years. Furthermore, though Dee tried his level best to pound the revelations of his Spirits into a Christian mold, it's hard to reconcile Christianity with a lot of what the Spirits had to say -- for example, Dee's own account says: "They [the Spirits] would have persuaded him [Kelley]: - That Jesus was not God. - That no prayer ought to be made to Jesus. - That there is no sin. - That man's soul doth go from one body to another childes quickening. - That as many men and women as are now, as have already been. - That the generation of mankind from Adam and Eve, is not History, but a writing which has another sense." (-- from "A True and Faithful Relation...") The transmigration of souls, reincarnation -- and the denial of 'original sin', the divinity of Jesus, and Biblical literalism -- not much in common with Rosicrucianism here. Sounds awfully Pagan to me. Alchemy: Now here's a place where Rosicrucian influence might be found, for they were obsessed with Alchemy. However, the Ciphers were not. There is only the barest mention of basic Alchemical terms in the Golden Dawn proper, in two of the Knowledge Lectures. Not much is done with it after that. What seems to be happening is that the Rosicrucians and the GD can claim some COMMON roots, but to say that the GD was a direct PRODUCT of Rosicrucianism is hardly supportable. Rosicrucianism concerns itself with the re-casting of the Christ mythology into the story of the allegorical Christian Rosencruz, who represents Christ in a form that 'ordinary mortals' can aspire to emulate. What we have here is a very telling example of the cultural chauvinism of Medieval and Renaissance Europe. They proceeded from certain basic immutable assumptions: 1. Christianity is the one and only True Way, the final product of all human spirituality evolved into it's highest possible form. This kind of philosophy found it's ultimate expression in the doctrine of Manifest Destiny and the efforts of the Europeans to "Christianize" the entire world -- whether the entire world liked it or not. 2. Therefore, all esoteric wisdom of any age preceding Christianity must be a foreshadowing of Christianity and support it's conclusions (see #1). Any evidence to the contrary must either be rejected outright or manipulated into a form that supports #1. The "Christian Qabbala" is an excellent example of this kind of manipulation -- and so is what the Rosicrucians who got ahold of the GD materials did to it. So what we have here is a classic case of the logical fallacy of altering the facts to fit the conclusions, instead of altering the conclusions to fit the facts. My "conspiracy theory" about this is that once Mathers moved to Paris, he was contacted by French and/or Belgian Rosicrucians who, having heard of the GD through their SRIA connections, presented themselves to Mathers as his legendary "Secret Chiefs" -- and basically ran a scam on him. Mathers' gullibility in such matters is legendary (viz. the Horos scandals). They convinced him that the GD was indeed a product of Rosicrucianism (not a hard sell, since Mathers' own roots lay there) and proceeded to feed him the "secret knowledge" on which he built his radically deviant Second Order, the so-called "RRetAC". In so doing they used the classic Christian modus operandi of co-opting a much older Pagan-based set of practices and twisting them to fit their Christian mold. IOW, they usurped the Golden Dawn from Paganism and perverted it to serve their Manifest Destiny. This kind of thing goes all the way back to St. Paul and his assimilation of Neo-Platonism and Mithrasism into what we now think of as "Christian Doctrine", co-opting (and re-writing) a minor Jewish religious prophet's teachings that were meant specifically for Jews into a 'universally applicable' religious system, which his successors (beginning with the converted Roman Empire) proceeded to spread throughout the world at the point of a sword and the barrel of a gun. I'm sure there are many ways to challenge my conspiracy theory, as with most conspiracy theories. What I hope it will do is inspire modern practitioners of the WMT to take a good, hard look at their roots and understand that much of what is simply accepted without question -- like the idea that the GD is "an expression of Rosicrucian thought" -- can indeed BE questioned, and SHOULD be. Like Chuck D said: "Don't believe the hype!" - Fr. A.o.C. "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." -- Doctor Who Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!news.ticon.net!news.linkpendium.com!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD Date: 7 Mar 2003 14:40:55 -0500 Organization: Crossing the Tape Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3E6252E8 <3E679AA0.C2F44533@slip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1047066055 27989 166.84.1.3 (7 Mar 2003 19:40:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:40:55 +0000 (UTC) Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340247 alt.magick.order:7328 alt.magick.tyagi:38696 >> > "We are the Rosicrucians of Borg. Your Pagan magical system called >> > 'Golden Dawn' will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." In article <3E679AA0.C2F44533@slip.net>, Fr. A.o.C. wrote: >Well, that depends on what one considers to be "original current". This is an extremely worthy (and exciting) line of inquiry. Please forgive me for doodling across your work in the childish impulse to "improve." >Enochian: clearly a product of the work of two Christians, Dee and >Kelley. But they preceded the 'birth' of Rosicrucianism by almost 100 >years. Strike a zero (or two) there. John Dee 1527-1608 Edward Kelly 1555-1593 Fama Fraternitatis (first recorded reference) 1610 Fama Fraternitalis ("replied to" in print) 1612 Dee's career in particular knots such a suspicious number of the threads that would later produce the Rosicrucian outcry that Dame Frances herself considered him "obviously placeable historically as a Renaissance magus of the later Rosicrucian type." >Alchemy: Now here's a place where Rosicrucian influence might be found, >for they were obsessed with Alchemy. However, the Ciphers were not. >There is only the barest mention of basic Alchemical terms in the Golden >Dawn proper, in two of the Knowledge Lectures. Not much is done with it >after that. I'm with you there. Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!ash.uu.net!zeus.visi.com!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Re O'Stat Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD Organization: Tantric Psychological Association References: <3E59525E.7D109EF4@slip.net> <3E5ADE78.8080802@cox.net> <3E5BCB56.D2FAA563@slip.net> <3E60819D.3D63064F@slip.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.126.245.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1047089181 24.126.245.201 (Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:06:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:06:21 GMT Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:06:22 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340272 alt.magick.order:7331 alt.magick.tyagi:38738 alt.pagan.magick:36473 In article <3E60819D.3D63064F@slip.net>, "Fr. A.o.C." wrote: > > This requires one draw a distinction between Thelema and the Golden Dawn > system. Our opinion (as stated on our site) is that there is no > dichotomy between them but rather they form one continuous tradition. And that explains it all. This is identical to the attitude held by many Christians that Christianity is simply an outgrowth of Judaism, and therefore an advancement upon Judaism. Jews would deny this. The Christians who hold that belief don't understand why Jews would do this. Likewise, if you WERE the G.D., you'd understand that the GD is NOT Thelema. If you will, AL represents the new dispensation. The AA replaces the GD. It supercedes it. Too bad. Re Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD Date: 9 Mar 2003 13:14:50 -0500 Organization: The Mercurian Monarch Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3E679AA0.C2F44533@slip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1047233690 15564 166.84.1.3 (9 Mar 2003 18:14:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 18:14:50 +0000 (UTC) Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340404 alt.magick.order:7343 alt.magick.tyagi:38853 In article , Satyr wrote: >Thanks, Robert. An excellent point, and I'm glad an informed >individual thought to make it. If memory serves, Sperber wrote that >the Fama had been in circulation for more than 19 years before >publication. Waite's only objection was that Sperber himself appears >to be the only witness for this much earlier date. If true, this would >place the time of authorship around 1595, or so. Your memory of Arthur is better than mine. Sperber's an interesting name to drop here because he apparently serves as another bridge between the early "Rosicrucian" upsurge, on the one hand, and Agrippa and the ceremonialists on the other. How often do we consider ceremonial magic as one of CRC's many fathers? And since Enochian can be considered as a species of evocation, the Dee connection looms a little larger. Of course this becomes vanishingly tangential to discussion of just what constitutes the GD current. But perhaps it is relevant to talk of other orders that, for example, might embrace either Rosicrucianism or GD (or both) while rejecting Dee and his Enochian practice. >Personally, I think that any modern, informed discussion of the >'Rosicrucian event' must make reference to the work of Dame Frances >Yates. She's still incredibly rich after all these years. And I love the way you phrase the furor here -- not a "sect" that emerges out of various shadowy motivations and historical forces, but simply as a phenomenon, a verb. An "event." -- Dee "had sown powerful seeds which were to grow to a strange harvest. It has been shown that the so-called 'Rosicrucian manifestos' published in Germany in the early 17th century are heavily influenced by Dee's philosophy, and that one of them contains a version of the MONAS." -- Yates, THE OCCULT PHILOSOPHY IN THE ELIZABETHAN AGE Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!rip!news.webusenet.com!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail From: glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema Subject: Re: Objectively Studying the GD Date: 11 Mar 2003 00:51:52 -0500 Organization: Habitus Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1047361913 23303 166.84.1.1 (11 Mar 2003 05:51:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 05:51:53 +0000 (UTC) Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:340469 alt.magick.order:7346 alt.magick.tyagi:38907 In article , Satyr wrote: >Judging from the description of "Echo" in The Rosicrucian >Enlightenment, it seems Sperber is indeed a bridge between Renaissance >magic and the early days of Rosicrucian thought. While looking for online versions of his work, I was pleasantly surprised to see that at least one writer makes an effort (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/sword.html) to track Enochian all the way to Sperber's Baltic stomping ground. Granted, the "evidence" is anecdotal at best, but an expert in the field such as yourself could likely make a more authoritative reading. Either way, Sperber and his Polish "Rosicrucian" milieu merit broader study, perhaps in connection with a fresh look at Sendivogius (and his unknown Cosmopolitan master, the alleged Scotsman whose wandering throughout Europe prepared the ground for the "alchemical" frenzy). You know, the Warburg hands out research grants in Dame Frances' name for enterprising people who pursue work like this. >> Of course this becomes vanishingly tangential to discussion of just >> what constitutes the GD current. But perhaps it is relevant to talk >> of other orders that, for example, might embrace either >> Rosicrucianism or GD (or both) while rejecting Dee and his Enochian >> practice. > >To my mind, not as tangential as might first appear. Enochian elements >are found in the Cypher Manuscript, and figure prominently in openings >of the elemental grades found therein. As you are probably aware, I am >of the opinion that without Enochian there would have been no Golden >Dawn. I accede to your more informed opinion here. My reluctance to get embroiled in Golden Dawn identity politics errs on the side of understatement. The exciting question (for me) might now become: If we can find Enochian and other "magia" in the roots of Rosicrucianism, how and why did the distinction between the old RC current and the Golden Dawn come about? And why does the Cypher Manuscript fail to transmit much concerning alchemy? I expect these are old questions for insiders, but for one who considers Fraulein Sprengel to be as egregorious as CRC (or the Cosmopolitan for that matter), they're still virgin territory. Magisterial paragraphs enshrined: >Thank you. It was an insight of a sort that struck while washing the >dishes and mulling over a response to Joseph's comments. Most >discussions of the furor revolve around whether or not such a body of >initiates existed prior to the Fama, as you say. This is highly >problematic, and in the rush to determine the facts as they are known, >what is to my mind the most important fact of all is too often lost in >the scuffle: something happened in the years prior to 1614, or else >we'd have never heard of the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross. > >Whether this event was an idea in the mind of a single individual, or >the result of some group effort, may never be known for certain, but >that something happened of sufficient magnitude to plant the >Rosicrucian archetype in the fertile minds of occultists of that age, >and throughout the 400 years that followed, is beyond dispute. The >publication of the Fama in 1614 is the appearance on the textual >horizon of a watershed event that neatly divides the history of >Western occultism into a before and an after.
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