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To: alt.necronomicon,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.religion.orisha
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (n'yrlo'thot'p)
Subject: Sigils/Magical Drawings and Cultural Variance (Kamea, Vevers, etc.; was Romancing the Necronomicon...)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:11:23 GMT

"Digital Buddha" :
>>>>>>I am seeking a depiction of the sigil of of the Watcher 
>>>>>>described in the book of the Necronomicon....

Gnomedplume@cavecom.net (Gnome d' Plume):
>>>>>There are not one, but three sigils employed in the Conjuration 
>>>>>of The Watcher according to Simon (Peter Levenda) found on page 
>>>>>69 of his book -- however, the first is a regular pentagram, 
>>>>>one is a double-ended kamea type (about as functional as a 
>>>>>snake with a head on each end) and the third is a kamea with a 
>>>>>kink in its tail.

combined, they appear on the cover of my 1980 version of the Avon
book, as well as a different version on the title page of the book.

>>>>>Why not get copies of real magick books,
>>>>>learn how sigils are actually constructed,

"reverend C Verey" (inri@jerusalemail.com):
>>How exactly are sigils constructed? I have doodled and ended up 
>>making sigils, which was followed by a magical operation. Isn't 
>>the idea to create nothing but God to see and posess God?

what are called 'sigils' by different people (and traditions)
appears to vary. even though Gnome doesn't want to "start a 
'Sigil Making Workshop'", his (I think, biased) mention of
"how sigils are actually constructed" is a good lead-in to
a discussion and comparison of what the term means, how it
relates to other terms like "kamea", "vevers" and "glyphs",
and whether this arose separately in diverse cultures or
may be traced to an historical origin.

n'yrlo'thot'p:
>>>>what principles are required for sigil construction, by your
>>>>assessment? what qualities are evidence of "false constructs"?

>>>...Akkadian, bolixed-up sigils that are insulting to those 
>>>of us who know how sigils are constructed,

Gnomedplume@cavecom.net (Gnome d' Plume):
>...there are several methods. The "Kameas" are square number-letter 
>grids with the same number of cells as the Hermetic number of the 
>planet, e.g. Five by five = Mars, six by six = Sol, and so forth. 

yes, these are called "magic squares" by many people, and they are
found in a multitude of cultures, not just Hermetic. I'd like to
find out where the term "kamea" derives from and who first used it
to refer to magic squares. it sounds like an African term.

>The idea here is to connect various cells (containing number-
>letters) with a jagged line beginning with an eyelet and ending 
>with a cross mark (sometimes they are double-ended, but this 
>makes it difficult to tell which way the name reads out), thus 
>spelling the name of the spirit within the pattern attributed 
>to, and derived from, the number of the planet. 

yes, I've read of this method in Dee's work and also in that of
the Golden Dawn. are you saying that this is the ONLY source of
"sigils"? my dictionary (Am Her Dic) has this to say about sigils:

	_sigil_ [sij'ul, sig'il] *n.* 1. A seal; signet.
		2. A sign or image considered magical. 
		{Lat. *sigillum*, dim. of *signum*, sign.}
	-----------------------------------------------
	American Heritage Dictionary, Second College
	 Edition, Houghton Mifflin, 1982, p. 1138.
	______________________________________________

now this doesn't sound like it ought ONLY refer to Golden Dawn
or even European grimoires. I'd suggest that a sigil is a much
broader category of magical drawing than can be circumscribed
by these cultures, and if someone is trying to do an Accadian
or Lovecraftian magical drawing then the borderline between
what is "real" and what is "fake" becomes even more hazy by
virtue of what is known (and not known) about Accadian magical
activity and, especially, what constitutes the "Magical Art of
the Old Ones and their cults" (HPL).

>Now if you either don't understand this (or just don't care) you can
>create something that has the characteristics of a kamea sigil but
>couldn't possibly be one. An example is the pentagram in the circle
>with the kamea type sigil imposed over it on the cover of Simon's
>Necronomicon. 

but Simon didn't maintain (nor I think would he now) that
the sigil in his book is a "kamea sigil". on page 69 he just
calls it a "sigil" or "sign" and is content with this
description. I can see criticizing his Accadian if we happen
to know about Accadian magical diagrams, and he could always
respond with something about the 'peculiarity of the Watchers
and their cult', but to take him to task because he "doesn't
know how to make sigils" seems too extreme. after all, in
Lovecraft's books what they were finding was ALWAYS at
variance from human cultures by virtue of its *alien* origins
(just on the edge of being comprehendable, twisted, and
subtlely disturbing, especially to academics).

therefore to say that Simon's Necronomicon is "wrong" because
it doesn't conform to (particular) human styles of 
sigillization is in some ways to support his work, not detract 
from it. at LEAST put your criticism within the historical
and geographical (what, Arab?) context else how can we under-
stand it as anything more than Hermetocentrism?

>Other types of sigils are freeform (automatic writing in
>a Liber Spiritum) as shown in the Lemegeton, Spirit wheels with the
>arms topped with various symbolic elements as shown in The Key of
>Solomon, condensed monograms or symbols such as Dee's Hieroglyphic
>Monad, and letters from various magical alphabets connected to form
>one design. The late David Jackson (Fra. Erilar) was an expert in this
>field and once showed me how lines of geomantic characters were
>transformed and linked  into Angelic sigil patterns.  

so are you saying that the sigils that appear on Simon's Ncon
evidence kamean qualities but don't follow kamean rules? if
so, are there other examples of magical diagrams which have
this quality? if you say no, then I can look for exceptions,
if yes perhaps those familiar with this field will provide 
references for us to pursue a more thorough evaluation.

>But the important point in all this is to at least be consistent 
>with the rules of the system you are using

and what were the rules of the system which the _Mad Arab_ 
was using?

>and not mix up a basically square kamea with a freeform and a 
>circle-bounded pentagram and then put the whole thing into a 
>bezel. 

now I agree that the two right figures look like kamea from
Hermetic tradition. there are few of these types of figures
in his Ncon that are circumscribed by squares (though they
do appear). some of these kamea-like figures are obvious
swipes from Hermetic grimoires. it might be valuable to do
an analysis of which ones these are. NONE of the diagrams
in his book have grids of letters over which the sigils are
placed, however.

my question is whether this type of sigillization appears in
any other cultures beyond the Hermetic, whether it might have
in fact been taken from elsewhere or inspired by other
magical drawings. what is the history behind these "kamea"?

principles of Hermetic sigil construction aside, how does
what Simon did match up with ANY other cultural sigils? are
any of these also called "kamea" or "sigils" today? what do
Accadian magical drawings look like? and what was the presumed
background of the Mad Arab?

>I hope this doesn't confuse more than it enlightens. I don't 
>want to take it any further. There is a certain point at which 
>you just have to leave your computer and hit the b-o-o-k-s.****

and you have suggested some Hermetic basic books from within
which one might learn about this culture's construction of
kamea and sigils. I'm not aware that any of these books delves
into the origins of kamea or sigils, details Accadian magical
drawings for us, or provides a context from within which to
properly criticize this Necronomicon. suggestions?

n'yrl'thot'p
-- 
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From: Gnomedplume@cavecom.net (Gnome d' Plume)
Newsgroups: alt.necronomicon,alt.magick,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.religion.orisha
Subject: Re: Sigils/Magical Drawings and Cultural Variance (Kamea, Vevers, etc.; was Romancing the Necronomicon...)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 05:19:05 GMT
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:11:23 GMT, nagasiva@luckymojo.com
(n'yrlo'thot'p) wrote:

>"Digital Buddha" :
>>>>>>>I am seeking a depiction of the sigil of of the Watcher 
>>>>>>>described in the book of the Necronomicon....
>
>Gnomedplume@cavecom.net (Gnome d' Plume):
>>>>>>There are not one, but three sigils employed in the Conjuration 
>>>>>>of The Watcher according to Simon (Peter Levenda) found on page 
>>>>>>69 of his book -- however, the first is a regular pentagram, 
>>>>>>one is a double-ended kamea type (about as functional as a 
>>>>>>snake with a head on each end) and the third is a kamea with a 
>>>>>>kink in its tail.
>
>combined, they appear on the cover of my 1980 version of the Avon
>book, as well as a different version on the title page of the book.
>
****Simon (or Peter called Simon), I realize that this is a rarefied
argument, and I also realize that magick down through the ages has
been very syncratic. The Aramaic-Demotic papyrus (circa. 450 B.C.)
which was the grand daddy of Gnostic rituals, was practiced in Egypt,
mixed Egyptian and Canaanite god forms, was written in a style of
Aramaic archaic for its time and cyphered into a Demotic alphabet. The
Sabians of Harran evoked everybody's gods in  long strings of
invocations -- but Lovecraft created (channeled if you want to be a
real romantic about it) a totally different super antediluvian,
pre-human mythology. Trying to shuffle Lovecraft's deck into Akkadian
mythology was IMO a mistake that goes beyond the bounds of the magical
syncrtisms between human mentioned above. We are mixing pre-human
(even pre-mamalian) forms with what Jung would call "Archetypes". What
the hell has Ishtar got to do with Cathulu?  The only analog between
the two systems is Tiamat.
        As for the sigils, sure medieval manuscripts abound with the
sort of little squiggles you sprinkled rather artistically around the
book but here again, they are obviously used as decoration. The
combination of the circular-bounded pentagram with two square-grid
derived sigils superimposed over it says to me (a graphic artist and a
magician) that you were being "decorative", not systematic.
        Arabs, because of their religious prohibition against morphic
imagery, tend to be abstract and symbolic in the small amount of such
designs they do use. Now if you were serious about Necronomicon sigils
you would think pre-human; you would design an alphabet of alien
characters, create star charts from 50,000 years ago; and develop a
nine or eleven based mathematical system. You would create a geometry
that would make people uneasy when they tried to contemplate its
forms.
        I think what you did do was at least good in one sense. Some
teenagers, through your book, eventually got into real magick. One of
them, our Frater Shem, has since become quite a scholar of
Akkadian-Assyrian mythology and magick.
        I am not saying that Lovecraft's Cathulu mythos must stand
totally on its own. Kenneth Grant has melded it into his post-Thelemic
Zos Kia Cultis with a deft hand and a subtle touch -- but  a direct
cheel-to-jowl connection between Akkadian mythos and Cathulu mythos
just doesn't work -- and a hodgepodge of different types of medieval
sigil graphics sprinkled on it is not make it work any better.

Gnome d' Plume

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From: Caigan 
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Subject: Re: Sigils/Magical Drawings and Cultural Variance (Kamea, Vevers, etc.; 
 was Romancing the Necronomicon...)
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Gnome d' Plume wrote:
> 
> ****Simon (or Peter called Simon), I realize that this is a rarefied
> argument, and I also realize that magick down through the ages has
> been very syncratic. The Aramaic-Demotic papyrus (circa. 450 B.C.)
> which was the grand daddy of Gnostic rituals, was practiced in Egypt,
> mixed Egyptian and Canaanite god forms, was written in a style of
> Aramaic archaic for its time and cyphered into a Demotic alphabet. The
> Sabians of Harran evoked everybody's gods in long strings of
> invocations -- but Lovecraft created (channeled if you want to be a
> real romantic about it) a totally different super antediluvian,
> pre-human mythology. Trying to shuffle Lovecraft's deck into Akkadian
> mythology was IMO a mistake that goes beyond the bounds of the magical
> syncretisms between human mentioned above. We are mixing pre-human
> (even pre-mammalian) forms with what Jung would call "Archetypes". What
> the hell has Ishtar got to do with Cthulhu?  The only analog between
> the two systems is Tiamat.

 Poisonally, I'd have preferred to do something more along the lines of
what Lin Carter did, and 'extend' the concordance of the Necronomicon
quotes from the HPL Circle. But, there you are. 

 The Gnostic-style 'Gate Walking'/pathworking stuff worked very well 
< IMHO > alongside the Kramer 'Innana' material that Simon adapted. 
Most of the inspiration for that came from the Coptic books of Jeu. I
looked through a great deal of Coptic material while working on the
'Simonomicon' - with a few excursions into things like Coxeter's
'Regular Polytopes', books on crystallography, stuff on Psychotic Art,
&tc... Quite a bit of the work I inked up was turned down; some of it
stuck.
 
 My reading of Jungian archetypes is that they are understood, in fact,
to extend into pre-human and, quite possibly, extra-human forms < given
the possibility of genetic tinkering, f'rinstance >. And pushing the
envelope of 'acceptable syncratic practice' < acceptable to whom, I
wonder? > is just peachy by me. 


>         As for the sigils, sure medieval manuscripts abound with the
> sort of little squiggles you sprinkled rather artistically around the
> book but here again, they are obviously used as decoration. The
> combination of the circular-bounded pentagram with two square-grid
> derived sigils superimposed over it says to me (a graphic artist and a
> magician) that you were being "decorative", not systematic.

 Combining those three elements < the pentagram with the two sigils >
was my idea, not Simon's. And the examples I cited in a previous post 
< the Seal of Solomon & the Seal of Astaroth > do combine sigils with 
a pentagram.

Yrs in Yog Sothothe Neblod-Zin,

-Khem Caigan 
Graphic Artist/Magician
http://www.bway.net/~frob/Simonomicon.html

P.S.-

 Assuming for the moment that I have the pleasure of addressing Mr.
Runyon, I'd just like to say 'thanks' for those copies of 'The Blue
Ray'. Hal's 'Divine Pneumata' was well-done. Too bad y'all didn't have
space to run his 'Prolegomena to a Philosophy of Magick and Mind'.