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Tarot Comparisons, Da'ath/Knowledge/Wisdom

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.tarot,alt.divination
From: hara 
Subject: Tarot Comparisons, Da'ath/Knowledge/Wisdom
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:41:17 GMT

50030715 viii om

shalom alechem, my kin.

malkuth27000 of the Sacred Landscape Elist:
> There is no reason to regard the older as the better. 

yes there IS reason. the older is more often tried and
tested. the older is more likely to be valuable if it
has sustained value to generations over time without
evidence of varying considerably. there is of course
also reason to regard the older as less valuable, but
your generalization only holds so far, and may serve 
merely to support abandonment of the older as unworthy 
of attention prior to providing a new development. 
I would agree, however, that just because something 
is older this doesn't make it ipso facto better.

> Rather the original as the correct, wihtin the bounds 
> layed by that original.

in terms of number mysticism, I don't know how you can
determine what is "correct" except to match it up with
the real world, which is the reason that the Sacred
Landscape List exists -- because too often people are
floating off in fictions and fantasies without ties to
the land, nature, and what we can demonstrate actual
by pointing directly to it (even if it's changing while
we're doing the pointing). you and I are doing that now,
but at least adhering to some of the grey areas. :>

what is the determinant of "originality" in such contexts?
does original mean that someone changed something so as
to produce something we haven't seen before, or something
that never existed before? or ? it isn't entirely obvious.

with respect to Tarot and sefirotic trees there's what
might be called originals, and we may benefit from seeing
of what they are composed. my interests have certainly
veered in that directly in the creation of symbolism 
with which I might conduct magical operations, and I
thought it beneficial to see what others have made 
before me so that I might pirate their art.

> SOmetimes not even this term applies. A so called 
> plagiate turns out to be just really an improved 
> version of an original and so a new original by itself.

if something is a version of something else, isn't the 
first the original, and the second a variation on the 
same theme? the next edition, etc.? i.e. the second 
isn't original excepting in its actual variation from
the original, however valuable that original might be.
this is the reason software retains the same name and
goes up in number by increment corresponding to the
level of its novelty. 'Netscape 4.0' is still the
same program (not original), but it is newer and has
more bells and whistles than 3.0 or 2.0. if someone
created something completely original based on the
Netscape program, it wouldn't be Netscape any more.

> To me it's intrinsic, that wisdom received today may 
> be more developed than it has been some thousand years 
> ago. 

interesting. I tend to think that knowledge is what is
received because it may be accrued and human beings
and the mind of consciousness reflective of it are not
immortal and grow, mature, then die, multiform, like
waves of humans dropping by and coming to apprehend the 
knowledge and refine and improve it while they're alive.

whereas wisdom is not really received at all, but
rarefied by careful processes of mystical discipline.

wisdom is something beyond what may be received, implying
'an ear that can hear ', 'an eye that can see
', etc.  knowledge is received and it may be wise,
but its quality of wisdom cannot be seen for what it is
unless one has sufficiently prepared for it. gleaning some
value from the wisdom may entail a scientific process of
trail and error, learning what knowledge is wise and what
knowledge is unwise, for example, and characteristics 
of each of these such that one may recognize them. 

> However today it may be perturbed by more 'noise'.

indeed. that rarefaction process may be impeded by the
tumult of social activity sometimes seemingly difficult 
to avoid. on the other hand, this noise poses a kind of
ordeal or obstacle which might strengthen the persistent.
the old 'what does not kill us makes us stronger' maxim.
> The tarot deck you mention seems to be very special. 

quite! I'm just making it! of course I'm following on
tradition and perverting it somewhat. ;> 

> Besides, the 15th letter is Samekh. 

depends on the Aybeecee set, don't it? not everyone
believes in the specialness of Hebrew or Greek or
Babylonian where letter-sets are concerned. in mine,
the 15th *letter* is O, but the Keys are sometimes
identified by a Roman Numberal cypher 0(!) through 
XXII or more, which places the XV in the Plebeian 
Tree at P, Foe (though I don't believe the Roman 
Numerals are worthy of continued usage and have 
left them off of my sefirotic tree). 

saying 'the 15th letter is ' is a kind
of cultural dogma which need not adhere within 
the use of sefirotic trees or gematria or Tarot.
after all, the 15th letter is also Dad (Arabic), 
and Omicron (Greek) or II (p, Russian). once we're
introducing card games to mysticism, why not there-
after introduce variation in the Aybeecees too?!

> The tower and the chariot are attributed to words
> and speech. 

Foe (/Devil) is attributed to Capricorn in the
Plebeian Tree. Cart to Cancer. these are not just
words, they are configurations of things, stars,
that are given meaning in constellation that 
also seem culturally-derived. 

> Da'at is not.

depends on the source. sometimes people refer to
'the Lower 7 Sefirot' as Da'ath, in which case it
would not be "beyond words". as such the Plebeian
Tree's *upper* 7 Numbers would probably be Da'ath.
there seems to be an array of cosmologies which
are implied by this semi-sefira.

> The Chariot is travelling the abyss, however perhaps not 
> necessarily da'ath. More likely you get accross there on 
> the path of gemini.

it's funny you say this. it directly applies also to the
Plebeian Tree, though I'm as yet unsure how to know when
the Abyss is involved and when it is not. is it merely
the space between the first Triad and the rest of the
sefirotic tree? are there variations on this too? when
did the concept of the Abyss arise and within whose

of course, in the Plebeian Tree the path travelled for
Gemini is between Numbers 3 and *4* rather than 3 and 6.
if there are hundreds of sefirotic trees, how can we be
sure which one is best to use? not only do trees and
their structure vary, but also do that which is ascribed
or attributed to their structure vary too. Occult Tarot
is filled with variation on decks and the symbolism that
is contained within decks. all of these could and would
indeed be mapped differently to a variety of differing
circle-path constructions. it gives one quite a bit 
from which to choose in playing with them.

personally, I don't *trust* tradition for what I want to
use these tools. my impression is that what is received
is not really *geared for me*, but for others, and maybe
for other processes. for this reason I have to basically
start over again, using the remains of the cultures that
I'm encountering. magicians sometimes destroy tradition
in favour of novel constructs or improvements that have
important qualitative difference. some say "all the old
rituals are black" (i.e. of unknown value and quite
possibly detrimental to our continued use) and set about
not so much 're-inventing the wheel' as taking bits and
pieces of what are *called* wheels and seeing what 
works best to affext to one's vehicles' axles.

> Another relation to Ain is the Ain in the word. 
> This is not a battle.
so you say Ayin and I say Pee. where do we go from here?
you say Lovers and I say Chariot. you say Kircher-style
Tree and I say Nigris-style Tree. you say your favorite
Tarot and I say one that I am making up right now. how 
do we derive something meaningful from an interchange 
on this subject that isn't based mostly on personal
reflections without value to others in the forum and 
to knowledge sets that are, effectively, arbitrary?

I'm not trying to dissuade you here. sefirotic trees
and number mysticism are interesting to me and topical
in the Sacred Landscape List, however much it might
annoy the traditionals who want *real Kabbalah* (which
these are not from what I can tell, when they include
such things as Tarot), or the mathophiles who want 
the square root of 1 or 2 or 3-Order-Magic-Square 
Lo Shu instead of counting numbers from 1 to 10 
and sefirotic trees. :>

do we have a common language if I've corrupted what
has been passed along as traditional which was not,
but was actually a corruption of mystical fragments
and half-understandings? does your Capricorn-Devil-XV-
Ayin-26 equate to my Capricorn-Foe-XV-P-26?? does 
their geometrical and letter-centered orientation
make a difference as to their meaning, or to their
correctness in some way? is the traditional Kircher-
style sefirotic tree (or its comparable Hebrew-based
constructs) with 22 paths somehow more valuable than 
my tetraktys with 26? I'm curious.

peace be upon you, 


~Subject: Tarotic Comparisons, Applications, Testing

50030717 viii

Dan Washburn from the Sacred Landscape List in response
 to the foregoing:
> ...with all these epistemological uncertainties don't 
> we have to turn to a pragmatic theory of truth?

of course not. :> we could retain our dogma and call that truth.
in terms of communication, etc., then whoever agrees with our
axioms ('self-evident truths') become our conversation partners.

besides, by implication, and through parallelling the tools,
I think in some cases there are means to translate symbol-
systems such that a deeper conversation is possible, though
the rough spots would have to be worked out between those
who are attempting to converse.

in the case of the Devil-XV-Ayin-Capricorn as compared with
Foe-XV-P-Capricorn, the differential is letter-based. it's
the rest that remains the same (and not through the whole
Trumps I'd guess, but within most of the traditional Trumps).
comparing Trees and seeing how they differ might give us some
insight into the way a translation may be possible. this is
in part what I *do* associate with kabbalistic enterprises:
analysis of several systems and comparing and contrasting
their various qualities and characteristics in the light of
our understanding what what they each seem to imply about
the cosmos.

> Which tree/tarot deck is producing good magical results?

I'm not sure that this is easily discerned, especially via 
the internet and with the current level of reflective scrutiny 
that is associated with religion, mysticism, and occultism.

also, I haven't really applied the Plebeian Tree (or even yet
understood all its facets) sufficiently to being to try to
apply it in magical rites yet. part of what I'm doing in
discussing it is trying to come to grips with what it should
include beyond the Letters, Attributions, and Tarot Trumps
(a few new Trumps require my additional investigation beyond
what would ordinarily occupy a student apprehending tradition).

my focus at present is what the Numbers mean, why they should
have the names that they do. tradition isn't enough of an
incentive for me to merely allow translations to stand for
their names. I tend to like 11 -- Knowledge, but as you can
see, I'm interested in a debate about what it means, how it
applies to the rest of the Tree and what it all implies,
particularly in light of emanation theories and Tarotic 
or Number symbolism.
> mystical experience
> prophesy

variation of genetics and circumstance may influence 
results for these in combination with technology.

> wealth
> love
> finding lost objects
> invisibility
> conjuring up spirits

there's the strict magic :>
> Any luck with these (or others) for either of you?

there's the rub, is it 'luck' or is it something that may
be easily associated with the use of the technology? for
my part, of the list above only 'mystical experience' has
been my aim, and that using methods that do not result
from, but *produce* the Tarot and sefirotic construct that
I'm discussing. 

I'm working from the premise that what is the focus of 
meditative and mystical construction will also be conducive 
to recreating it in others, or inspiring beneficial internal 
results based on my insights into the mechanism of focussed 
meditation or contemplation and the objects of that focus 
(as with sefirotic trees/tarot/etc.) and what they inspire.
> Or are you wandering lost on the path of hodos chameleonos, 
> having a good time with your symbol systems.

I don't know where that path is, never heard of it. :>

I don't think that I'm lost, far from it, but I do think
that your list above is not really my aim. rather, my aim
is what I call spirituality or mysticism, and helpful results 
from focal constructs and divinatory devices with certain
qualities that I'm attempting to integrate into tradition
where I find it lacking. this is something that the Golden 
Dawn did once or twice in its A) Cypher Manuscript location
of the Fool at the beginning and B) the GD-SWITCH of the 
Strength and Justice Names and Pictures after the 
manuscript made this possible. 

other occultists have attempted to improve upon the same,
such as Crowley, but I do not find their improvement to
be persuasive or conducive to the results that I value
(integrity, clarity of experience, internal insight, 
and a reflection on the natural, real world).

~Subject: Re: Symbol-Mysticism, Knowledge and Wisdom

50030715 viii om

shalom alechem, my kin.

#> the [Plebeian] Tree confirms your assertion about the 
#> XV being FOE -- P [/Devil].... using English letters 
#> rather than Hebrew....  XV being the equivalent of Devil)....

malkuth27000 of the Sacred Landscape Elist:
# Show me that tree. I wanna see it. 

you can find it described in

with a reference to a GIF I created to which I constantly
refer (to which I made recent refinement of path-overlay).
I've begun calling it the Plebeian Tree after this final (?)
change and discerning the historical restructuring that was
established by Mackenzie and Crowley (in the Cypher Ms. and
"The Book of Thoth" respectively). the Plebeian School of QBL
has long been a waiting shell into which I was to toss all
of my creations of this nature. I understood the need to give
the Tree a label when setting about constructing text of a
*dogmatic nature* in comparison to traditional sources. ;>

# If devil is P it perhaps just has the magician at alef 
# and fool at shin. 

I know completely to what you refer, but this is not the case.
you are speaking of the pre-Mackenziean attribution scheme
that has the Fool between cards Judgment/Aeon and World/Universe.
this attributes it the letter Shin in Hebrew-based sefirotics.

no, in the Plebeian Tree the Fool is placed at the beginning 
of the Trump, as was directed by Mackenzie's papers and
thereafter taken up by the Golden Dawn in Book T and elsewhere.
this is from where Crowley obtained the placement, and where 
I found it myself (in the "Thoth" deck).

# rest may be the same as further clued by the zodiacal signs. 
# this may be not a "plebean tree" (i have searched internet 
# but did found just your page which was not informative on 
# this), 

sorry it wasn't informative. I'd be happy to provide
additional instruction as to its composition in a proper
venue. I've done this in Tarot-L and usenet already and
am content to refine my own understanding through repeated
descriptions. you won't find it elsewhere, since it is a
novel construction in some ways. people like John Opsopaus
have put together a Pythagorean Tarot, which I found
immensely inspirational in some respects, but they didn't
so identify their Tree as Plebeian. I've only just done
so as a measure of my confidence in its resistance to my
assaults in persistently attempting to refine it. :>

# but just the aka mathers/levi. Using english
# letter symbols may be interesting, while the fool at shin 
# may be wrong to stick with cause it's perhaps lacking 
# order and essence. 

indeed. I'm of a mind to follow the GD and Crowley on this
in particular as when there is a designation of Fool as 0.
I have found no need to give Roman Numerals to the Trumps,
and benefit from omitting them because of changes I've
made that might make the appearance of them immediately
confusing to me at this stage of my understanding of it, 
but 0 prior to I was always conceptually logical to me.
much moreso than XX 0 XXI!

# The fool zero no-thing (tohu va bohu, BeLIMaH), next 
# card 1 by beth gematria 2, followed by card 2 gimel 
# gematria 3 is made so by intent.

indeed, I don't find this very convincing or elegant.
it has always seemed to me that the Letter given to
the Trump ought to resonate with any number given,
and that this was a left-over of having transformed
a card game into an occult and/or QBListic lattice.

# This is on one hand the essential "zen koan" part of 
# the tarot and on other hand e.g. symbol for "1" is 
# essentially the same as symbol for Beth (compare 
# with a serifed font). 


# On third hand the PFC = Paul Foster Case = Bota deck 
# regards the symbolic appearance and similarites to
# hebrew letter meanings among them for the cards (e.g. 
# gimel has been drawn as a curve like 2 compared to 1, 
# which is beth that has been drawn as an arrowhead). 
# While actually the third hand is the first and
# the others cycle around like juggling, the essence 
# is the truth.

I'm not convinced of the truth as yet, but I do find
it valuable to examine the *English Letters* for this
kind of numerical resonance. there are aspects of the
Letters that have numerical components, for example.

the A has 1 cross-beam, the B has 2 loops. only the
H amongst the first set of Letters is anywhere 
close to the Arabic numbers (H/8). that some of them
(e.g. C) have been duped for Roman Numerals is amusing. 

# I'll read the rest and comment after having seen 
# the plb tree.

k00l! I look forward to that, even if it is to say
that the uniqueness and unusualness of the Plebeian
Tree is not yet worth your time to consider. :> as
I was trying to make clear, my questions to you were
an attempt to examine the bases for both tradition
and communication in what might be described as a
completely *arbitrary* symbol-set. were we to find
a common ground, it might be interesting to examine
how that plays out in speaking about sefirotic trees
and Tarot amongst a diversity of constructions. thanks.



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