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Logic of Crowley's Tzaddi/Heh Swap

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.divination
From: hara 
Subject: Re: Logic of Crowley's Tzaddi/Heh Swap
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:34:37 GMT

50030708 viii

shalom alechem my kin,

Bilbo Baggins :
#># between the dali deck attributions, the classic gd attributions,
#># and the thoth deck, i count 3 differing sets of attributions.
#># all of them are right/ coherent?

nagasiva who did't examine the dali cards very closely (horrors! :>):
#> gd and ac are conventional letter-sequence. dali is just being dali.
#> considering his deck in such a way is almost sacreligious. ;>

"Clavis" :
# Actually, Dali uses the sequence found in Papus' The Tarot Of 
# The Bohemians.

thanks! that makes all of them completely the same letter-sequence,
just differently arranged. strangely, Rachel Pollack, in her book
on the Dali tarot, places the Fool first, with the letter Shin, 
so you can understand my confusion. ;> after seeing the black disk
I went no further, figuring someone else would solve the mystery.

# ...there has never been a single, unified "Western Mystery Tradition".

I am not aware of exceptions in which the Hebrew Letters are 
somehow changed from their source in Sepher Yetzirah. are you?

peace be unto you,


Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.thelema
Subject: Tarot Trump Attribution Comparisons (Dali-Fomalhaut/GD)
References:  <> <%JFKa.5792$> <>  <> <>
From: hara 
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50030627 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006

shalom alechem, my kin.

#># I'll be happy to take a closer look at it. 
#># does Dali also try to switch Hebrew letters 
#># from their conventional sequence?

it does not so appear, but his attribution-scheme
is one I don't recall offhand, esp. with III/EARTH.

blandcriminal/SATANAS :
# these attributions don't seem any more right and 
# less right than the gd, or thelemic attributions. 
# what do you think?

I don't know how to evaluate that except in terms of
elegance and a reflection on natural and traditional
standards. after having formalized it somewhat, filled
in a couple of missing details and looked through my
texts to find a comparable system of attribution, I'm
fairly confident that I've identified its source,
which doesn't appear to be related to the GD except 
as a possible relative to Levi or Papus. the Shin-Fool
connection is rather definitively Levi, but the
inclusion of Earth and exclusion of elements is not. 

Dali omits elemental associations in favour of 3 
additional Planets (URANUS, NEPTUNE, and EARTH). 
it places sol at the initial, which is rational, as is
the synching of this with ALEPH (contrast this with
Sepher Yetziratic patterns beginning with AIR that
usually attempt to describe the connection with the
letter ALEPH than with some other rationale). I don't
see any pattern in the attributions beyond card
III -- EARTH -- EMPRESS, though the association betwixt
JUPITER and EMPEROR is certainly comprehensible, as are
the next few, to VI -- VIRGO -- LOVERS.

as usual, once we reach the CHARIOT things start to
break down. Dali/Fomalhaut have VII -- SAGITTARIUS --
CHARIOT, which makes as much sense as XIX -- GEMINI --
SUN (i.e. not much). abandoning a strict attraction
between cards and attributions, I detect no obvious
pattern in the card attributions (nothing natural,
at least). Planets are in no discernable pattern,
jumping from JUPITER to MERCURY thence to NEPTUNE,
and backward toward VENUS. the Signs are even more
erratic, though the *post-GD Cypher Ms.* sequence
has been integrated such that we can see VIII-LIBRA
and XI-LEO sort of waiting to be interchanged. :>

in comparison to the GD sequence (Sepher Yetziratic),
used here by Dali, it is neither natural (containing
a legitimate and sequential zodiac) nor adhering to any
obvious traditional form beyond my mention below. it
has Levi's questionable placement of (in this case
the UNNUMBERED rather than 0) FOOL at letter SHIN,
and has qualities reminiscent of those origins, but
conveys no immediate rhyme or reason in its format.

the Crowley deck (what you are calling the "thelemic 
attributions") differs not a whit from that of the 
GD excepting the transposition of the EMPEROR and
STAR names and symbolism, attributions unchanged,
regardless what those insufficiently-informed 
are wont to maintain. the Dali is likewise 
inferior to it for the reasons outlined above.

arguments to the contrary welcomed. I'd love to
see someone draw out a meaningful pattern in the
attributions given here. Decker and Dummett do
compliment the sequence based on the fact that
it incorporates the newer Planets (URANUS/NEPTUNE),
but they don't say why PLUTO should be left out,
fail to mention the trans-astrological inclusion
of EARTH (which I find important enough to do
in my deck), and don't explain any sort of 
justification for (indeed or *placement* for) 
the FOOL's attribute or position.
farid al-qahar:
#> what's the conventional sequence? 

most dictionaries (under "alphabet") and many Hermetic
occultist texts have the Aleph-Beth. it is a basic to 
many in the WET (Western Esoteric Tradition) which I've 
learned more from osmosis in studying tarot than from 
any real study of that lingo. my aim is to transplant 
it for English for any ceremonial activities I undertake.

see below for what is consistently rendered. Dali 
uses it, as I imagine those whom he may have studied.

re la emperatiz / III / gimel / : 
# after looking at the explanatory booklet, 
# the 'black circle' is supposed to signify Earth.

reasonable. I'm setting your typing into columns 
and amending it here, placing alongside it what I
can find that most closely approximates it from
Occult Tarot tradition. black circle is less well-
known to me as a symbol for Earth than circled-cross:

$ LETTER    ## TITLE           ATTRIBUTION              FOMALHAUT
$ aleph      I mago            sol                      sol 
$ beth      II sacerdotisa     luna                     luna 
$ gimel    III emperatriz      earth (black circle)     earth
$ daleth  IIII emperador       jupiter                  jupiter
$ heh        V sumo sacerdote  mercury                  mercury
$ vau       VI enamerorados    virgo                    virgo
$ zain     VII carro           sagittarius              sagittarius
$ cheth   VIII justicia        libra                    libra
$ teth   VIIII ermitano        neptune                  neptune
$ yod        X rueda/fortuna   capricorn                capricorn
$ kaph      XI fuerza          leo                      leo
$ lamed    XII colgado         uranus                   uranus
$ maim    XIII muerte          saturn                   saturn
$ nun    XIIII templanza       aquarius                 aquarius
$ samek	    XV diablo          mars                     mars
$ aiyn     XVI torre           aries                    aries
$ peh     XVII estrella        venus                    venus
$ tzaddi XVIII luna            cancer                   cancer
$ qoph 	XVIIII sol             gemini                   gemini
$ resh 	    XX juico           pisces                   pisces
$ shin      -- loco            scorpio                  scorpio
$ tau 	   XXI mundo           taurus                   taurus

'Fomalhaut' is described by Decker/Dummett in the following:

	The Tchou reprint of *Le Tarot des imagiers du moyen
	age* [by Oswald Wirth] contains a final page, not
	written by Wirth. This page, a fold-out chart,
	contrasts the astrological correspondences that a
	dozen authors have found in the Tarot. One of them
	is 'Fomalhaut', actually Charles Nicoulland
	(1854-1925), the French astrologer who wrote
	*Manuel d'astrologie spherique et judiciaire*
	(*Manual of Spherical and Judicial Astrology*,
	Vignot, 1897). The [system above] appears under
	his name. ...

	These correspondences are appealing because the
	combination of 10 planets and 12 signs nicely
	fulfills the desired quantity of 22. Of course,
	Uranus and Neptune were unknown to those who
	produced the first Tarot.... Nevertheless these
	same correspondences are given in Eudes Picard's
	*Manuel synthetique et pratique du Tarot* (Paris,
	1909). His work, blended with that of Papus and
	of Elie Alta, is the basis for the Tarot article
	in M.C. Poinsot's *The Encyclopedia of the Occult
	Sciences* (New York, 1939). And this is the source
	cited by Migene Gonzalez-Wippler for Chapter 18,
	'Divination', in her book *The Complete Book of
	Spells, Ceremonies, and Magic (New York, 1978).
	 "A History of the Occult Tarot: 1870-1970", by
	  Ronald Decker and Michael Dummett, Duckworth,
	  2002; pp. 184-5.

commentary/correction welcome.

peace be with you,


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