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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.tarot,alt.divination From: haraSubject: Re: Logic of Crowley's Tzaddi/Heh Swap Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 20:34:37 GMT 50030708 viii shalom alechem my kin, Bilbo Baggins : #># between the dali deck attributions, the classic gd attributions, #># and the thoth deck, i count 3 differing sets of attributions. #># all of them are right/ coherent? nagasiva who did't examine the dali cards very closely (horrors! :>): #> gd and ac are conventional letter-sequence. dali is just being dali. #> considering his deck in such a way is almost sacreligious. ;> "Clavis" : # Actually, Dali uses the sequence found in Papus' The Tarot Of # The Bohemians. thanks! that makes all of them completely the same letter-sequence, just differently arranged. strangely, Rachel Pollack, in her book on the Dali tarot, places the Fool first, with the letter Shin, so you can understand my confusion. ;> after seeing the black disk I went no further, figuring someone else would solve the mystery. # ...there has never been a single, unified "Western Mystery Tradition". I am not aware of exceptions in which the Hebrew Letters are somehow changed from their source in Sepher Yetzirah. are you? peace be unto you, hara Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.thelema Subject: Tarot Trump Attribution Comparisons (Dali-Fomalhaut/GD) References: <3EFB0DAB.7020004@cox.net> <%JFKa.5792$%3.279397@typhoon.sonic.net> <3EFB8957.9040201@cox.net> <3EFC7D4A.2050607@cox.net> <3F0793C9.3040801@cox.net> From: hara Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 173 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 06:11:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1057731101 208.201.242.18 (Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:11:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:11:41 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:40332 alt.pagan.magick:37742 alt.magick:351356 50030627 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006 shalom alechem, my kin. hara: #># I'll be happy to take a closer look at it. #># does Dali also try to switch Hebrew letters #># from their conventional sequence? it does not so appear, but his attribution-scheme is one I don't recall offhand, esp. with III/EARTH. blandcriminal/SATANAS : # these attributions don't seem any more right and # less right than the gd, or thelemic attributions. # what do you think? I don't know how to evaluate that except in terms of elegance and a reflection on natural and traditional standards. after having formalized it somewhat, filled in a couple of missing details and looked through my texts to find a comparable system of attribution, I'm fairly confident that I've identified its source, which doesn't appear to be related to the GD except as a possible relative to Levi or Papus. the Shin-Fool connection is rather definitively Levi, but the inclusion of Earth and exclusion of elements is not. Dali omits elemental associations in favour of 3 additional Planets (URANUS, NEPTUNE, and EARTH). it places sol at the initial, which is rational, as is the synching of this with ALEPH (contrast this with Sepher Yetziratic patterns beginning with AIR that usually attempt to describe the connection with the letter ALEPH than with some other rationale). I don't see any pattern in the attributions beyond card III -- EARTH -- EMPRESS, though the association betwixt JUPITER and EMPEROR is certainly comprehensible, as are the next few, to VI -- VIRGO -- LOVERS. as usual, once we reach the CHARIOT things start to break down. Dali/Fomalhaut have VII -- SAGITTARIUS -- CHARIOT, which makes as much sense as XIX -- GEMINI -- SUN (i.e. not much). abandoning a strict attraction between cards and attributions, I detect no obvious pattern in the card attributions (nothing natural, at least). Planets are in no discernable pattern, jumping from JUPITER to MERCURY thence to NEPTUNE, and backward toward VENUS. the Signs are even more erratic, though the *post-GD Cypher Ms.* sequence has been integrated such that we can see VIII-LIBRA and XI-LEO sort of waiting to be interchanged. :> in comparison to the GD sequence (Sepher Yetziratic), used here by Dali, it is neither natural (containing a legitimate and sequential zodiac) nor adhering to any obvious traditional form beyond my mention below. it has Levi's questionable placement of (in this case the UNNUMBERED rather than 0) FOOL at letter SHIN, and has qualities reminiscent of those origins, but conveys no immediate rhyme or reason in its format. the Crowley deck (what you are calling the "thelemic attributions") differs not a whit from that of the GD excepting the transposition of the EMPEROR and STAR names and symbolism, attributions unchanged, regardless what those insufficiently-informed are wont to maintain. the Dali is likewise inferior to it for the reasons outlined above. arguments to the contrary welcomed. I'd love to see someone draw out a meaningful pattern in the attributions given here. Decker and Dummett do compliment the sequence based on the fact that it incorporates the newer Planets (URANUS/NEPTUNE), but they don't say why PLUTO should be left out, fail to mention the trans-astrological inclusion of EARTH (which I find important enough to do in my deck), and don't explain any sort of justification for (indeed or *placement* for) the FOOL's attribute or position. farid al-qahar: #> what's the conventional sequence? most dictionaries (under "alphabet") and many Hermetic occultist texts have the Aleph-Beth. it is a basic to many in the WET (Western Esoteric Tradition) which I've learned more from osmosis in studying tarot than from any real study of that lingo. my aim is to transplant it for English for any ceremonial activities I undertake. see below for what is consistently rendered. Dali uses it, as I imagine those whom he may have studied. re la emperatiz / III / gimel / : # after looking at the explanatory booklet, # the 'black circle' is supposed to signify Earth. reasonable. I'm setting your typing into columns and amending it here, placing alongside it what I can find that most closely approximates it from Occult Tarot tradition. black circle is less well- known to me as a symbol for Earth than circled-cross: $------------------------- $ DALI TAROT ATTRIBUTIONS $----------------------------------------------------------------- $ LETTER ## TITLE ATTRIBUTION FOMALHAUT $----------------------------------------------------------------- $ aleph I mago sol sol $ beth II sacerdotisa luna luna $ gimel III emperatriz earth (black circle) earth $ daleth IIII emperador jupiter jupiter $ heh V sumo sacerdote mercury mercury $ vau VI enamerorados virgo virgo $ zain VII carro sagittarius sagittarius $ cheth VIII justicia libra libra $ teth VIIII ermitano neptune neptune $ yod X rueda/fortuna capricorn capricorn $ kaph XI fuerza leo leo $ lamed XII colgado uranus uranus $ maim XIII muerte saturn saturn $ nun XIIII templanza aquarius aquarius $ samek XV diablo mars mars $ aiyn XVI torre aries aries $ peh XVII estrella venus venus $ tzaddi XVIII luna cancer cancer $ qoph XVIIII sol gemini gemini $ resh XX juico pisces pisces $ shin -- loco scorpio scorpio $ tau XXI mundo taurus taurus $----------------------------------------------------------------- 'Fomalhaut' is described by Decker/Dummett in the following: The Tchou reprint of *Le Tarot des imagiers du moyen age* [by Oswald Wirth] contains a final page, not written by Wirth. This page, a fold-out chart, contrasts the astrological correspondences that a dozen authors have found in the Tarot. One of them is 'Fomalhaut', actually Charles Nicoulland (1854-1925), the French astrologer who wrote *Manuel d'astrologie spherique et judiciaire* (*Manual of Spherical and Judicial Astrology*, Vignot, 1897). The [system above] appears under his name. ... These correspondences are appealing because the combination of 10 planets and 12 signs nicely fulfills the desired quantity of 22. Of course, Uranus and Neptune were unknown to those who produced the first Tarot.... Nevertheless these same correspondences are given in Eudes Picard's *Manuel synthetique et pratique du Tarot* (Paris, 1909). His work, blended with that of Papus and of Elie Alta, is the basis for the Tarot article in M.C. Poinsot's *The Encyclopedia of the Occult Sciences* (New York, 1939). And this is the source cited by Migene Gonzalez-Wippler for Chapter 18, 'Divination', in her book *The Complete Book of Spells, Ceremonies, and Magic (New York, 1978). ------------------------------------------------ "A History of the Occult Tarot: 1870-1970", by Ronald Decker and Michael Dummett, Duckworth, 2002; pp. 184-5. ================================================ commentary/correction welcome. peace be with you, hara
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