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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.mythology,sci.skeptic,alt.psychology.jung From: nagasivaSubject: Re: Evidence Supporting Collective Unconscious/Archetypes? Anybody? (was Demonstrating) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:10:33 GMT theesage@azrmci.net (The_Sage) writes : d00d! you need serious help on your side of the argument. I'll try to help you out a little here by surfing the net and looking for what other people think constitutes evidence in support of the Collective Unconscious theory (which I'm fast becoming convinced is a religious dogma! part of Jungism and the Great World Transcendental Tour): c'mon everybody it's surfin' Jungfari... ~From: ARCHETYPES AND THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS - Chapter 1# Section: THE CONCEPT OF THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS1 URL: http://www.geocities.com/nisgore/html/jungArchetypesch1.html # 3. Method of Proof # # ...We must now turn to the question of how the existence of # archetypes can be proved. Since archetypes are supposed to # produce certain psychic forms, we must discuss how and where one # can get hold of the material demonstrating these forms. The main # source, then, is dreams) which have the advantage of being # involuntary, spontaneous products of the unconscious psyche and # are therefore pure products of nature not falsified by any # conscious purpose. By questioning the individual one can # ascertain which of the motifs appearing in the dream are known to # him. From those which are unknown to him we must naturally # exclude all motifs which might be known to him, as for # instance-to revert to the case of Leonardo-the vulture symbol. We # are not sure whether Leonardo took this symbol from Horapollo or # not, although it would have been perfectly possible for an # educated person of that time, because in those days artists were # distinguished for their wide knowledge of the humanities. # Therefore, although the bird motif is an archetype par # excellence, its existence in Leonardo's fantasy would still prove # nothing. Consequently, we must look for motifs which could not # possibly be knovn to the dreamer arid yet behave functionally in # his dream in such a manner as to coincide with the functioning of # the archetype known from historical sources. # # Another source for the material we need is to be found in "active # imagination." By this I mean a sequence of fantasies produced by # deliberate concentration. I have found that the existence of # unrealized, unconscious fantasies increases the frequency and # intensity of dreams, and that when these fantasies are made # conscious the dreams change their character and become weaker and # less frequent. From this I have drawn the conclusion that dreams # often contain fantasies which "want" to become conscious. The # sources of dreams are often repressed instincts which have a # natural tendency to influence the conscious mind. In cases of # this sort, the patient is simply given the task of contemplating # any one fragment of fantasy that seems significant to him-a # third to the fifth year. Such material is available in profusion, # but it is valueless unless one can adduce convincing mythological # parallels. It does not, of course, suffice simply to connect a # dream about a snake with the mythological occurrence of snakes, # for who is to guarantee that the functional meaning of the snake # in the dream is the same as in the mythological setting? In order # to draw a valid parallel, it is necessary to know the functional] # meaning of the individual symbol, and then to find out whether # the apparently parallel mythological symbol has a similar context # and therefore the same functional meaning. Establishing such # facts not only requires lengthy and wearisome researches, but is # also an ungrateful subject for demonstration. As the symbols must # not be torn out of their context, one has to launch forth into # exhaustive descriptions, personal as well as symbological, and # this is practically impossible in the framework of a lecture. I # have repeatedly tried it at the risk of sending one half of my # audience to sleep.... dreams d00d. dream on. and ~From: mythos URL: http://www.openspaceworld.com/mythos.htm # ...There is of course some thought and evidence that mythos # actually begins much before the origin of any particular # organization in the collective unconscious of the species (Jung) # and that it first "sees the light of day" as an activity of the # right brain.(See Julian Jaynes, "The Origin of Consciousness in # the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind", Houghton Mifflin, 1976.) d00d! you've apparently enlisted Jaynes to help you out! and ~From: Neo-Freudians URL: http://peace.saumag.edu/faculty/Kardas/Courses/GPWeiten/C12Personality/NeoFreud.html # the collective unconscious aroused much controversy. Jung, # especially late in life, developed an interest in universal # symbols. He felt they could be used as evidence for the # existence of the collective unconscious. He described the # mandala as one of those symbols. Mandalas consist of a # combination of a circle and a cross. Jung did find mandalas # in cultures around the world, but simpler explanations, # such as development of children's progressive ability to # draw crossed lines and circles, may suffice to explain # their prevalence. first example: "mandala" -- alternative theory explained. and interestingly ~From: Abstracts of the Collected Works of C.G. Jung URL: http://www.cgjungpage.org/abvol8.html # ...Evidence for # the existence of the collective unconscious is found in several # clinical cases; it is also reflected in the existence of several # religious beliefs, especially in early and medieval Christianity. beliefs, not diagrams, like... ~From: The Heart of History by William Van Dusen Wishard URL: http://www.cgjungpage.org/articles/wishardhist.html # As Jung studied the history of the mind, he saw patterns that # appeared to be common to every culture ever known. As Anthony # Stevens points out in The Two Million-Year-Old Self, all human # communities, however "primitive," have always had laws about # property, rules governing courtship and marriage, rules of # etiquette prescribing forms of greetings and modes of address, # cooperative labor, gift-giving, the performance of funeral rites, # the recital of myths and legends, procedures for settling # disputes, taboos relating to food and incest, dream # interpretation, etc. # # Jung defined all such patterns of behavior as evidence of what he # termed "archetypes," or universal motifs stemming from the # collective unconscious. so we can see what Jung thought was evidence. and better yet ~From: Symbolism.Org: Symbolism of Popular Culture: The Burning Mirror URL: http://www.symbolism.org/writing/books/spc/burning/page3.html # The territory of symbolism and the context of the world it # represents lays both before and behind us ready for modern # explorers to bring new tools and methods to its exploration. The # collective unconscious theory of Carl Jung held great promise as # a path towards this elusive context. But today, collective # unconscious is at the center of a revisioning attack on Jungian # psychology centering around the concept of hidden memory or # cryptomnesia. The attack is based on recent work by scholars such # as John Kerr and Richard Noll arguing that much of the key # evidence for the existence of the collective unconscious is taken # from work with psychotics and mediums during the early years of # the development of psychoanalysis. The images these patients # reported were from materials in the culture of the time they had # seen and forgotten rather than from ancient documents and myths # they could not possibably have seen. again the weak spot appears to be reliance on dreams. here is clear reference to the Solar-Phallic Man hoax. and check out this guy (no evidence, but he calls Noll's observation the low water mark on Jungian theories, pointing out specific errors in Noll's expression): Cult Fictions URL: http://www.cgjungpage.org/articles/sonu1.html am I helping you out any, Sage? :> Seyfert-1 nagasiva@luckymojo.com
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